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"Digital modelers just don't cut through"

Lax

Inspired
Root criticized modellers in a rehearsing environment with live amps, I give no credit to it. I would if he was talking about pa gigging sound, comparing unmic'ed sound is useless.
 

lqdsnddist

Axe-Master
Older is always better with guitarist.....

62 strat through a 64 super reverb, with a late 60’s fuzz will ‘always’ sound better than playing a new American Standard through a modern Super Reverb and using one of countless booteek fuzz pedals on the market......

Likewise, new digital technology is ‘further’ away from the “classic” gear so it “must” be inferior.

Certain guitar players logic right there..... not all of them, but honestly I don’t think there is any type of musician as into thinking the peak of the technology was the late 50’s/early 60’s as guitar players.

The gear we lust over, the musicians we idolize, when the “classic” albums came out.... some guys just haven’t changed or tried new things, new gear, listen to new artist etc. more power to them, but doesn’t mean they are right, nor does it mean anyone else is wrong.
 
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Use the basics. It’s about tone the most.
I’ll only use an effects when needed... although all my patches have just a touch of reverb.. 9-12% max.You don’t even hear it in the mix when the band is playing.
 

Paperjace

Veteran
The horse has been beaten to mush.

He has a signature tube amp with a certain fruit company. Of course he would say something like that. And he's getting free publicity from digital modeling enthusiasts arguing about his comments because they know digital users take offense to it. His comment isn't even relevant to amp modeling. It's a mixing issue.
 

ESW

Regular
Older is always better with guitarist.....

62 strat through a 64 super reverb, with a late 60’s fuzz will ‘always’ sound better than playing a new American Standard through a modern Super Reverb and using one of countless booteek fuzz pedals on the market......

Likewise, new digital technology is ‘further’ away from the “classic” gear so it “must” be inferior.

Certain guitar players logic right there..... not all of them, but honestly I don’t think there is any type of musician as into thinking the peak of the technology was the late 50’s/early 60’s as guitar players.

The gear we lust over, the musicians we idolize, when the “classic” albums came out.... some guys just haven’t changed or tried new things, new gear, listen to new artist etc. more power to them, but doesn’t mean they are right, nor does it mean anyone else is wrong.
I'm totally guilty of this. Most of my guitars are 50+ years old, and I have tons of old tube amps and effects. The irony is that I'm better able to get the sounds I loved from old records with my Axe-FX III than I can with my vintage equipment.
 

ibanezfreak4

Forum Addict
but most recently was Jim Root of Slipknot
I absolutely love Jim and the band, however, tone is not something I think of when I listen to Slipknot. Sure, a Mesa Mark V cranked to 7-8 into 2 4X12 cabs is tough to recreate in person without some serious amplification/know-how in amping a modeler.

With that I feel it is possible to recreate the tone into a digital recording or FOH live reproduction quality that would suit Slipknot as well as many other metal front runners. It's certainly easier to maintain from a production crew perspective IMHO. What do I know, it's my opinion ;)

Where did Jim Root state this? Curious, thanks.
 

lqdsnddist

Axe-Master
I'm totally guilty of this. Most of my guitars are 50+ years old, and I have tons of old tube amps and effects. The irony is that I'm better able to get the sounds I loved from old records with my Axe-FX III than I can with my vintage equipment.

Just look at the relic market....

Heck, when I build my own I will “age” some stuff, use a tinted lacquer so it looks like 40 years of yellowing from smoke filled bars, even though the guitar is 6 months old and never had been in a bar one time lol

It’s just an aesthetic which relates to a certain type of musicianship or lifestyle, which then relates to a certain type of music, and none of it need to technically true, but we all accept it as fact.

See a guy who looks like Keith Richards and with some great old gear and we get excited “this is going to sound great”..:

See a guy with tan pants and white tennis shoes, with a shiny new guitar and an Axe III and we may think “this will suck” but obviously the dude may sound and play fantastically.

Guitarist love to judge books by their covers, and the dustier the cover the better lol
 

Muad'zin

Forum Addict
Older is always better with guitarist.....
True, we are truly the most staunchly conservative lot on the planet. We make the Taliban and ISIS look progressive in comparison. Except for the chopping up people part of course. Cause that's plainly both wrong and so not our thing.

62 strat through a 64 super reverb, with a late 60’s fuzz will ‘always’ sound better than playing a new American Standard through a modern Super Reverb and using one of countless booteek fuzz pedals on the market......

Likewise, new digital technology is ‘further’ away from the “classic” gear so it “must” be inferior.

Certain guitar players logic right there..... not all of them, but honestly I don’t think there is any type of musician as into thinking the peak of the technology was the late 50’s/early 60’s as guitar players.

The gear we lust over, the musicians we idolize, when the “classic” albums came out.... some guys just haven’t changed or tried new things, new gear, listen to new artist etc. more power to them, but doesn’t mean they are right, nor does it mean anyone else is wrong.
That's because we've become obsessed with the classic tones of our idols. Who happen to be from that era. And we forget that for them those tones were the best they could do with the stuff that they had available to them. Sure, David Gilmour's fuzz face tone on Time sounds great to us, but I wonder if when he listens back to it he thinks like, hmm, I wish I had had my Big Muff back then, instead of the fuzz face. And I know that Circle of Tone did a youtube vid on having nailed Iron Maiden's tone on their first album, while their current day tone has long moved on. I like Tony Iommi's tone on Master of Reality, but his tone also changed over the years, with his final tone on XIII sounding nothing like Master of Reality. They worked with what they had, not always because it was the best tone ever and forever. A lot of tone fanboys seem to forget that.

Tom Abraham said the exact same thing on Tone Talk a while back, starting about 1:38:58...

When I still did FOH sound engineering I never had any problems with a guitar player using a pod or a modeler vs. a tube amp player. And we had mostly metal, which is an incredibly dense mix. Metallica's FOH sound guy has no problem with modelers, he seems to quite like them. I'm not saying Tom is an old fart who only knows old stuff and dislikes new stuff. It could very well happened exactly as it did. Different people, different experiences. Stuff happens. I've had rehearsals where my sound completely disappeared into the overall rehearsal 'mix', while at home it sounded great. Of course at home I don't have drums and bass playing along with me. But I also knows that what sounds great at home does not automatically translates into also cutting through a mix.
 
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ibanezfreak4

Forum Addict
Different people, different experiences.
Moral of the story, nuff said ;)

You can find just as many people who hate modelers as people who love modelers. Use what tool works best for you, I choose something that is portable, versatile, and modular in function. Amps are expensive and heavy :tearsofjoy:
 

6L6C

Forum Addict
Just look at the relic market....

Heck, when I build my own I will “age” some stuff, use a tinted lacquer so it looks like 40 years of yellowing from smoke filled bars, even though the guitar is 6 months old and never had been in a bar one time lol
This made me chuckle a bit. There is a guitar store by me. And they have a fair amount of "relic's", "limited run" "59 profiled neck" "58 profiled neck" "60-62 profiled necks". Aged tuners, aged bridges and so on. And for the privilege of what I consider "window dressing" you get to pay allot more. Some of the aged Strat's, have seen prices like 3500-4000 (on the cheap side) then you go into 5000-8000 range. Of coarse there are other brands that do the same.
I'm not knocking the store, really a nice place! But I do refer to it as "The guitar store for doctors and lawyers"
Hell they seem to move the inventory so there doing something right.

What it comes down for me. Feel of coarse, but how does it sound?? But in the case of these high end relics, don't think it really matters. I suspect they just end up hanging of the wall to be admired like a painting. (a piece of art)
 

lqdsnddist

Axe-Master
This made me chuckle a bit. There is a guitar store by me. And they have a fair amount of "relic's", "limited run" "59 profiled neck" "58 profiled neck" "60-62 profiled necks". Aged tuners, aged bridges and so on. And for the privilege of what I consider "window dressing" you get to pay allot more. Some of the aged Strat's, have seen prices like 3500-4000 (on the cheap side) then you go into 5000-8000 range. Of coarse there are other brands that do the same.
I'm not knocking the store, really a nice place! But I do refer to it as "The guitar store for doctors and lawyers"
Hell they seem to move the inventory so there doing something right.

What it comes down for me. Feel of coarse, but how does it sound?? But in the case of these high end relics, don't think it really matters. I suspect they just end up hanging of the wall to be admired like a painting. (a piece of art)
In some cases I agree it’s purely for looks, but, it can affect how it feels and plays too. A neck with the finish rubs off, the fretboard edges rounded etc does feel different than a sharp edged, thick sticky poly neck after all....

Likewise, you really don’t have to worry about dings, buckle rash etc, like you would on a new showroom beauty where you don’t want that first blemish.....

I know I sure don’t want the stress of building one where the slightest screwdriver slip ruins a month of painting.... I’d rather say those flaws were done on purpose and call it a relic lol
 

s0c9

Moderator
Moderator
I look at it this way.. When playing the Axe in a band setting:
Does it sound good to you?
Do you get complaints from audience or FOH when you play?
If not, then ignore what others are saying about modelers, and go PLAY! :D
 

Muad'zin

Forum Addict
In some cases I agree it’s purely for looks, but, it can affect how it feels and plays too. A neck with the finish rubs off, the fretboard edges rounded etc does feel different than a sharp edged, thick sticky poly neck after all....
Moral of this story, maybe the solution is to standard produce necks that aren't covered in paint or poly? Which is why I prefer not to paint my necks.

Likewise, you really don’t have to worry about dings, buckle rash etc, like you would on a new showroom beauty where you don’t want that first blemish.....
But ........, but those would be my battle scars, not some fake ones made in a factory. Besides, its going to happen anyway at some point. Unless you stick it behind glass and throw away the key. Guitars are tools. They are meant to be used. Tools will develop wear and tear. The only alternative is not to use them.

I know I sure don’t want the stress of building one where the slightest screwdriver slip ruins a month of painting.... I’d rather say those flaws were done on purpose and call it a relic lol
Yeah, I've had those slipups. That's when you start to curse really profoundly. Masking tape can be your friend in that regard. I also learned the hard way that when you build a guitar with a studded tremelo its best to hammer those studs in before you start doing months of paint work. Yeah it will make wet sanding around those studs a tad hard, but a lot less frustrating then hammering them in afterwards and see the paint splinter. Lesson learned.

 

Piing

Forum Addict
True, we are truly the most staunchly conservative lot on the planet.

True. Rock started as a revolution against the norm, but many rock musicians have become the most irrational conservative freaks on the planet.

I have a friend who says you're not manly enough if you don't play with a Gibson Les Paul directly plugged to a Tube Amp. Go figure.
 

Muad'zin

Forum Addict
That's usually what happens in any movement. They start out fresh everything is possible, then over time they ossify into you have to do things a certain way. And after that the new rules became the end in itself.
 

Techboy57

Inspired
I've been a sound engineer for the past 30 years, I also play guitar and have a fractal II XL+. I have played on, mixed and recorded all kinds of setups from the simplest to huge racks. I also have an assortment of great modern and vintage guitars and tube amplifiers. The state of the art of the technology available today is mind-boggling, we live in an age where you can have a fantasy warehouse full of gear inside a black box. The kind of stuff that wet dreams are made of for guitarists.

What this debate seems to come down to is personal preference, one person likes modelers and others like tubes. There are no right or wrong answers here. Each person is allowed to their opinion. I adore the sound of my vintage tube amps but no longer want to lug them around, I'm 61 and don't have the desire to pull my back out.

But getting back to the main question, I would although disagree with the statement that modelers don't cut through the mix, I think that Metallica and Def Leppard to name a couple of bands would disagree also. Modelers are here to stay and getting better all the time, I'm looking forward to one day moving up the Axe FX III when I can. Anybody want to buy a fender twin, LOL !!!!
 

Lax

Inspired
So what is the trick ?
Which EQ is better to tweak for a piercing FOH sound ? Is it on IR's choice or pure EQ ? :)
 
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