Difficulties I m facing to make presets for Live purpose

Nakul Sharma

Nakul Sharma

Member
Hey all.
Came up with queries. M very much satisfied with my axe fx 2. I play live mostly. In lounges(pubs). M having difficulties in making patches. Eq basically. I have ganelecs(8040a) but my room isn't sound proof. My sound varies massively when I mix on ganelecs and when I hear it on stage. This is the thing which is dragging me back. If there are any flat pa(frfr) which I can have. Or any solution to come out of this issue.. I know abt global eq in axe. But it's good if there is 19/21 difference. Here m getting lot worse. My highs sound too bright. My lows flub. We get to play on different pa manufacturer s. Depending on lounge to lounge. Secondaly. I have ibanez rg 3770 prestige. Stock pups. Should I go for cab packs. I love ML irs . Should I go for his CP's. I like his CP USA and Brit Family. I want my ibanez to sound great with fenderish tones . If I can come closer to stratish feel with the IRs . M into heavier stuff too but don't need at this time.
 
Goggle 'Fletcher–Munson curves'. You will need to reduce the highs and some lows at higher volumes. I cut the highs at the mixer channel strips. So I don't have to edit my presets. I don't use a lot of low-end in my presets anyway. I cut the lows before or in the Amp block 'Basic' page to reduce 'flub' on distorted tones and make up some (if needed) in the amp block GEQ or the cab block (Proximity). I still use the 'Low and High Cuts' in the cab block.
 
Moke said:
Goggle 'Fletcher–Munson curves'. You will need to reduce the highs and some lows at higher volumes. I cut the highs at the mixer channel strips. So I don't have to edit my presets. I don't use a lot of low-end in my presets anyway. I cut the lows before or in the Amp block 'Basic' page to reduce 'flub' on distorted tones and make up some (if needed) in the amp block GEQ or the cab block (Proximity). I still use the 'Low and High Cuts' in the cab block.
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This is 100% spot-on -- great advice. If your amp sound is bassy or flabby or mushy sounding, the Amp Block's "cut" is very useful.

For Live play, another place to fine-tune is the Cab Block; it's is your friend to tame the amp - think of it as a filter after the amp. Your amp should put out strong mids, and you should cut lows (at least everything below 100hz in most cases) in the Cab block and highs, most guitar cabinets/speakers do not put out anything above 6khz anyway in real life, so don't be afraid to cut everything above 7khz in the Cab Block - you won't notice the difference much but it helps (especially with unwanted "fizz').
 
Hey guys thank u for the replies. I will try yr suggestions. So should I continue to make presets on my studio monitors which are kept in non treated room and try yr methods or should I make my presets on some sort of PA's?
 
some stages are boomy (usually elevated ones), some are not so boomy (concrete). I usually deal with this with the global eq in worst case scenarios... most of the time I just roll with it..... and Mr. Fletcher Munson is a real weenie most of the time.
 
Nakul Sharma said:
So should I continue to make presets on my studio monitors which are kept in non treated room and try yr methods or should I make my presets on some sort of PA's?
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When you make your presets in a FRFR environment, you need to make sure that the preset db level you are listening to is coming in at at least 92db (loud) to overcome Fletcher-Munson effect.

That's not super-duper loud, but it is the same level db Hollywood movie folks composing soundtracks engineer to, for when you sit in the movies...

Program presets for stage at anything less, you invite trouble later when you crank it up. If you plan to play gigs through PAs and wedge monitors, it may make sense for you to get a flat Wedge and program to that.

If you have a smart phone you can get an App for db levels to test them. Hope that helps.
 
Remember however that the function scale of human auditory perception is based on normal hearing sensitivity....

I know many a guitarist who dial in some painfully shrill patches because to their sound damaged ears it sounds "just right"

An annual trip to your local Doctor of Audilogy to get an up to date measure of your hearing thresholds is a good idea for any musician from a hearing conservation standpoint and quite important for anyone doing sound design or engineering
 
Try to make your presets in as close to a stage environment as possible. If you're making them at home in a small room, be aware that many frequencies - especially under 250 cycles will be distorted due to the length of the waves. Some will cancel each other out and some will be amplified depending on room dimensions. The louder you go in a small room, the more these frequencies will be heightened/diminished. In any case, don't use the small studio monitors, use the rig you will bring onstage then at rehearsal and soundcheck, be ready to make some quick adjustments. In the end make your best guess and be ready to adjust on the fly if possible.
 
Burn Witch Burn said:
The louder you go in a small room, the more these frequencies will be heightened/diminished. In any case, don't use the small studio monitors, use the rig you will bring onstage then at rehearsal and soundcheck, be ready to make some quick adjustments.
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You kind of contradict yourself here, saying the louder you go the more mix troubles you have, yet at the same time, saying don't use small studio monitors....

This type of application is exactly what near field studio monitors are designed for, allowing direct monitoring in a small space, and largely helping to avoid the pitfalls of far field monitoring and all of the room coloration that ensues.

The very point of a flat reference monitor is that one can use it to make mix decisions that will translate well to other systems, both large and small. One does need to learn a bit how a mix will translate to a bigger system though. For example, if your mixing late a night, and a lower volume, no you won't, and should not, feel much of a bump in your chest from the bass. If you do, it means its way too bass heavy of mix, and on a bigger system is going to sound like total mud.

While one is learning their monitors it can be helpful to listen to some other systems, like go listen through the car stereo, and see how what you hear with your desktop monitors sound in the car, muddy ? shrill and thin ? etc...

Also listen to some other program material you know well, or think you know. Sometimes you can be surprised at how the actual tracks sound on an accurate system, especially if your typically used to listening to a home stereo, or car system, with things like the "club" or "rock" eq settings which are often baked into those systems and try to make them sound "good" instead of accurate.

I've learned my Prosonus nearfields sitting at my mixing desk, and I can translate a mix, or in this case a patch, that sounds good on them, to my CLR's at volume. Its the point of having both options so I can make patches jamming at volume, and also come home and still play/record more, even though I switch over to my desktop monitors.


Also don't forget that there are some crappy PA's out there with a poor sound reproduction no matter what you feed them, don't always think its your patches.
 
I agree with Moke. If you have a wireless, go out front of the FOH and give a listen. Every room is different. Typically, just a bit of adjustment on the channel strip on the FOH board will do the trick. Do try to make your presets at gig volume or you will just be exacerbating Fletcher-Munson.
 
For me, the biggest affect FM has on my tone is the gain (hair) is lessened as the volume increases. In other words, If I dial in a tone that has a somewhat liquidy crunch at low-moderate volumes, it becomes "cleaner" at high volumes.

Maybe a better way to describe it is like this: You dial in a good crunch tone and then add a drive pedal to get that last bit of creamy crunchiness and all is well.

When I crank to gig volumes, it's like turning that drive pedal off and adding more gain does not bring it back.
 
@Warrior - My comment may not apply to everyone but for me the gain loss at higher volumes comes from playing with a lighter touch. The louder volume makes me instinctively play with a lighter touch. If I hit the strings as hard as I can, the "gain" comes back. This may not apply to everybody or style.
 
While I'm all in favor of the artist being able to go out into the venue and listen to the tone from the audience perspective (god love wireless lol) keep one thing in mind.... the venue is going to sound totally different empty at a sound check than it will when its full of bodies.

Humans, even skinny ones, have a very high sound absorption coefficient, and can really change the overall acoustics of what you heard during soundcheck. Its kind of like the difference from how your garage or concrete basement sounds, with bare hard surfaces, vs how things sound in your living room, provided you've got lots of furniture, carpeting etc.

I've ran sound for lots of guys who wants to make tweaks at the board during soundcheck, though we'd try to assure them that we had it dialed in for the venue, because we ran sound night after night there and knew what it sounded like at capacity, listened to lots of different bands and program material through it etc.

Guys would get all pissed at how they were going to sound that night, and then lo and behold, after the gig they'd get compliments saying they sounded great. Imagine that..... lol. If we would of let them get on the board and dialed for their soundcheck, it would of sounded like crap when it was packed.

We essentially did a soundcheck just to get the relative levels correct and a little eq and cuts if something sounded far too hot, but, we weren't trying to venture too far outside what we knew already worked well for 99% of material.

So keep that in mind if you are sound checking, and also don't totally write off the guys running sound at the venue, they might just know a bit about the system and venue acoustics. Not all, some guys are nothing more than bar backs who were shown where the power switch is, and who's only duty is to bring down the recorded program material that plays between bands, when they aren't working on stocking bar and getting ice... they are out there, but, a lot of them, a majority even, do try to make everyone sound, within reason, and can make some pretty good suggestions
 
lqdsnddist said:
You kind of contradict yourself here, saying the louder you go the more mix troubles you have, yet at the same time, saying don't use small studio monitors....
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You're right. It does seem contradictory. No problem. What I mean is, since you're not taking your studio monitors onstage, get your sound with your actual rig. Test it loud and soft, but keep in mind that your room may be accenting/diminishing certain frequencies the louder you go in a small room. Test it out at rehearsal, soundcheck, and be ready to make adjustments. That's what works for me anyway. Good luck, brother.
 
Offering a few thoughts (good thread!)...In seven years with Fractals, I've found the only 100% sure-fire way to program great live sound presets is to do so on a stage (or rehearsal hall) at gig volume. Get some backing tracks going in the PA. See how your patches sit/work within them. NO Fletcher Munson issues now - replicate your gig and dial it in.

You will learn a lot fast about how much bottom and top end has to be chopped off to make your guitar stand out and sit well with other instruments.

Guitar is a mids instrument -- low mids, mids, high mids. The passive 5 band EQ in the amp block (on the second page there) is your friend. Great tool -- check it out, just moving .75 to 1db in either direction produces very noticeable results.

And the overall GLOBAL GEQ for Out1 (or Out2) is your friend if the room or stage is weird. Not doing metal music, but I personally have no issue totally removing ALL 31 and ALL 63Hz at Global output EQ and same for the top end 16k -- just pulling them all the way down/out.

You'd be amazed how some "famous" guitar tracks sound when isolated into stems - they can be a horrible stand alone tone, but when blended into a mix (which after all is what the mixing engineer is doing), they work great. There are some older EVH tracks with very little bottom end that sound arguably raspy alone as stems (Marshall and JBLs!), but not in the context of the full track - they sound awesome, but it would not be a tone I'd ever dial up by itself thinking "that sounds great!."

When I did the 700+ Naked Amps TonePack, I originally dialed everything up at roughly 92 db loudness (there are smart phone app decibel meters you can get) using studio FRFRs, but then I played them back on a cab 10-12 feet away from me (Atomic Neo CLR) in mono, just to see if they'd hold up for a live gig and sound the same (they did!). That's another technique...

Good luck!
 
As mentioned previously your best bet is to dial in your live presets at or near gig volume with your band or some backing tracks.
 
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