Dialing in when playing live: Lead Bump FOH vs. Stage

[bluessyndicate]

I used my FM9 live last night for the first time. Hoping to get some useful insights from your collective expertise and experience.



Had some problems with setting levels properly, and it was a difficult evening for the band overall, getting used to the new situation. Not sure how psyched they are for me to continue to pursue a digital modeler direct to FOH. Especially given the phenomenal tube amp tone for which I have been known for locally.



It was an adjustment for bandmates to mix my signal into their monitors. I expect they can figure that out.

Using my monitor (QSC K10) in front of me rather than having an amp behind me was “different” for everyone. I think I’ll try putting my QSC K10 behind me next time, as an amp would be.

After I set my Output2 level to give the mixer a unity level feed , as the soundman set my channel level, it seemed non linear. i.e. although the mixer had a strong FM9 signal, there was no sound until the channel slide was up at least half way, and then it came on way strong.

The level bump I get in my monitor did not seem to be the same level bump the audience got in the FOH.



I’m more interested in discussing items 3 and 4, although if anyone has something to say about 1 or 2, I’m grateful for all feedback. But it’s 3 and 4 that are the bigger issues for gaining acceptance in the use of my FM9.



Item 3, I’m guessing, is more an issue with the mixer than the FM9. The mixer may be having complications with some of it’s channels. Maybe the guy running the board was doing something wrong. I’m not sure whether he had zeroed things out from whatever had used that channel before. Never the less, if someone has experienced this non linear response in PA channel levels, that would be useful feedback.



Item 4 is my most pressing issue. I spent significant time at home using the preset level tool, and the scenario level tool to give myself what I thought were proper levels of bump for clean vs. rhythm vs solo settings. Additionally, I set the button layouts such that I could bump up or down 2db as needed on the fly… and I successfully used that layout to adjust things throughout the night. I’m told however that when I would kick in for a solo that I was coming in way hot. My experience was that the level bump was appropriate from what I could hear in my monitor, but apparently I was crushing the audience at times, or stepping on the vocals at times.



It was not feasible that my output 1 level was set near the same level as output 2. i.e. the stage volume could not be set to match the live volume, if that is critical for getting similar bump response from level 1 vs. level 2. As I write this it occurs to me that I could have set output 1 and 2 the same, and then the PA mixer could have been used to adjust my channel volume. But I’m not sure how important it is for output 1 and 2 to match. I only mention it because of comments about how the FM9 should be dialed in at gig level volume.



For reference, the patch I was using was the ODS 100, and the scenes were the clean, boosted clean and PAB for solo.



Happy to provide more details if needed, or answer questions about my process to uncover things I’ve done wrong.



I think the FM9 is an incredible piece of gear with fantastic options and flexibility. Kudos to Fractal, and all of you for the insights you share on youtube channels and here on the forum.



I’m appreciative for any and all insights.

 

[md1234]

Good to hear that although you had some issues you are positive in solving them. I'm sure your issues can be overcome! If you have your own or usual soundguy you might be able meet up with him and troubleshoot the things that are related to the mixer. If not possible, at least try to get an idea of what fx/eq/comp/etc are activated on your channel.

what I thought were proper levels of bump for clean vs. rhythm vs solo settings

@Item 4) I (like you) use the Preset Leveling tool, but cleans and cleany rhythms can be somewhat difficult to level (but that also depends on using compressor(s) or not), compared to high gain / lead tones. Personally, I'd try to find a suitable backing track or recording you can play along with, to get an idea of the levelchanges of your scenes (and your tone) in relation to the rest of a band... maybe that helps you also. Btw. I have a dedicated footswitch for a 2.7dB solo boost.

Good luck on solving and stay positive like you said: it is an incredible piece of gear!

 

[Rex]

Level your presets at gig volume, with a backing track or with the band behind you — just like you’d dial in a traditional amp-and-pedals rig.

Also, an audio signal is an audio signal. It won’t make your channel faders behave in a nonlinear way. That problem was at the sound desk.

 

[rcm78]

Fractal gear has a learning curve. Take the time to learn how to use the unit in your situation before taking it to a show.

 

[marc0810]

I used my FM9 live last night for the first time. Hoping to get some useful insights from your collective expertise and experience.



Had some problems with setting levels properly, and it was a difficult evening for the band overall, getting used to the new situation. Not sure how psyched they are for me to continue to pursue a digital modeler direct to FOH. Especially given the phenomenal tube amp tone for which I have been known for locally.



It was an adjustment for bandmates to mix my signal into their monitors. I expect they can figure that out.

Using my monitor (QSC K10) in front of me rather than having an amp behind me was “different” for everyone. I think I’ll try putting my QSC K10 behind me next time, as an amp would be.

After I set my Output2 level to give the mixer a unity level feed , as the soundman set my channel level, it seemed non linear. i.e. although the mixer had a strong FM9 signal, there was no sound until the channel slide was up at least half way, and then it came on way strong.

The level bump I get in my monitor did not seem to be the same level bump the audience got in the FOH.



I’m more interested in discussing items 3 and 4, although if anyone has something to say about 1 or 2, I’m grateful for all feedback. But it’s 3 and 4 that are the bigger issues for gaining acceptance in the use of my FM9.



Item 3, I’m guessing, is more an issue with the mixer than the FM9. The mixer may be having complications with some of it’s channels. Maybe the guy running the board was doing something wrong. I’m not sure whether he had zeroed things out from whatever had used that channel before. Never the less, if someone has experienced this non linear response in PA channel levels, that would be useful feedback.



Item 4 is my most pressing issue. I spent significant time at home using the preset level tool, and the scenario level tool to give myself what I thought were proper levels of bump for clean vs. rhythm vs solo settings. Additionally, I set the button layouts such that I could bump up or down 2db as needed on the fly… and I successfully used that layout to adjust things throughout the night. I’m told however that when I would kick in for a solo that I was coming in way hot. My experience was that the level bump was appropriate from what I could hear in my monitor, but apparently I was crushing the audience at times, or stepping on the vocals at times.



It was not feasible that my output 1 level was set near the same level as output 2. i.e. the stage volume could not be set to match the live volume, if that is critical for getting similar bump response from level 1 vs. level 2. As I write this it occurs to me that I could have set output 1 and 2 the same, and then the PA mixer could have been used to adjust my channel volume. But I’m not sure how important it is for output 1 and 2 to match. I only mention it because of comments about how the FM9 should be dialed in at gig level volume.



For reference, the patch I was using was the ODS 100, and the scenes were the clean, boosted clean and PAB for solo.



Happy to provide more details if needed, or answer questions about my process to uncover things I’ve done wrong.



I think the FM9 is an incredible piece of gear with fantastic options and flexibility. Kudos to Fractal, and all of you for the insights you share on youtube channels and here on the forum.



I’m appreciative for any and all insights.

Here is how I set up all my fractal products for live use regardless of whether I have a speaker behind me on stage or going through IEM’s. I adjust the output level from -10 to +4 dbl. Output 2 is setup to mirror output 1. I run out1 to the mixer with the out 1 knob at 50%, if I am running out2 to an onstage speaker I generally keep it at about 50% and use the speaker volume knob as needed. My presets are setup at all the same level minus leads which are 3db louder.

 

[MikeDV]

I'm a little confused by your issues. Not too long ago I started using the FM9 that way - output 1 backline into a Fender FR12 (different from yours, obviously) and output 2 into the PA. My experience - the sound guy gives me an XLR into the PA; sound check to get monitors right, he does FOH, I've got zero to do with that. Maybe I should get a wireless and go out there to hear what he does...but feed back from audience members has been positive. Next - backline - I control that strictly for me, I get up to the Fletcher-Munson area and get my good tone, slightly loud, but no one else seems to have an issue - which I can turn down or up with no "can you turn that down" from the sound guy. Matter of fact, I typically do the monitor setup without anything coming from my backline. The FR12 has its own volume and EQ knobs, so I can tweak my presets that way, and crank or not totally separate from FOH and monitors. It's also got tilt legs, so it's all for me me me. I've always put it behind me like a conventional backline. So - once I send my signal to the sound guy, and he feels good with it, there's no bumps/drops, or anything outside of what he does. Yep, preset and scene leveling is important there, but you need to do that in advance. Also, if he's any good and paying attention, he can compensate for some fluctuations in real time. What comes out of the FOH and monitors is all him - unless YOU change what he's getting. The other outputs from the Fractal are totally independent, that's the beauty of this setup. Obviously you can easily give him more or less signal with the output knob on the top of the FM9. He "should" be able to get his level in correctly right then. Old school, I would set my amp, do a sound check, then typically (at least for me), the volume knob on the amp would slightly creep up (usually a waitress would sneak up and turn it up..ha ha), resulting in the inevitable "please turn your amp back down". That's why I'm a little confused, I treat it as two inter-related systems. Once I give a good, complete guitar signal to the PA, any weird results (outside of me not leveling correctly, or some other odd stuff) are all on the sound guy. If he's jacked up, he has to be fixed, not you. Final thought, don't know where to put this - since I take a little of my own sound through my monitor speaker from the PA, outside of getting the right tone, I don't feel the need to crank the backline even more. It's definitely a paradigm adjustment, but there's LOTS more control if you do it in the right way - at least the right way for me. Little edit: looking at your post, there's no need whatsoever for the gross output (all of your sounds together, leaving the FM9) to be related to each other. The complete sound is already cooked up, your just sending it into the world at needed/desired volumes. Output 1 volume can be at 9 o'clock, and output 2 can be at 11 o'clock, No rules there.

 

[bluessyndicate]

Good to hear that although you had some issues you are positive in solving them. I'm sure your issues can be overcome! If you have your own or usual soundguy you might be able meet up with him and troubleshoot the things that are related to the mixer. If not possible, at least try to get an idea of what fx/eq/comp/etc are activated on your channel.


@Item 4) I (like you) use the Preset Leveling tool, but cleans and cleany rhythms can be somewhat difficult to level (but that also depends on using compressor(s) or not), compared to high gain / lead tones. Personally, I'd try to find a suitable backing track or recording you can play along with, to get an idea of the levelchanges of your scenes (and your tone) in relation to the rest of a band... maybe that helps you also. Btw. I have a dedicated footswitch for a 2.7dB solo boost.

Good luck on solving and stay positive like you said: it is an incredible piece of gear!

Thanks! Yes balancing the uncompressed cleans vs the compressed gain is tricky. As i've read you can't rely only on the meters only, and must of course rely on your ears as well. Great suggesting for playing with a backing track, i'll give that a shot.

 

[bluessyndicate]

Level your presets at gig volume, with a backing track or with the band behind you — just like you’d dial in a traditional amp-and-pedals rig.

Also, an audio signal is an audio signal. It won’t make your channel faders behave in a nonlinear way. That problem was at the sound desk.

Great suggestion thanks, and yes regarding audio signals, i've written that part of my original problem statement off as a problem with the mixer, not the FM9. Thanks.

 

[bluessyndicate]

Here is how I set up all my fractal products for live use regardless of whether I have a speaker behind me on stage or going through IEM’s. I adjust the output level from -10 to +4 dbl. Output 2 is setup to mirror output 1. I run out1 to the mixer with the out 1 knob at 50%, if I am running out2 to an onstage speaker I generally keep it at about 50% and use the speaker volume knob as needed. My presets are setup at all the same level minus leads which are 3db louder.

Thanks Marc. I had read that -10 was the normal approach and that +4 was for rack gear or pro audio. And I believe the non linear mixer issue was an issued with the mixer..so I think I'm fine there. 50% sounds good, I think that's about where I was with the signal to the mixer....gave me a good unity level on the Mackie ProV22. I likewise had the PAB scene on the ODS 100 set up a few db louder than the other scenes...and this is where I ran into trouble. that level of bump sounded perfect to me behind a floor wedge, but apparently the level of bump that made in the FOH was overwhelming...so that's the crux of my issue here, how can I get an acceptable level bump when I select as scene for a lead, that is good for me behind my monitor, and also good for the audience hearing hte FOH? This is the problem I need to solve. Thanks!

 

[bluessyndicate]

I'm a little confused by your issues. Not too long ago I started using the FM9 that way - output 1 backline into a Fender FR12 (different from yours, obviously) and output 2 into the PA. My experience - the sound guy gives me an XLR into the PA; sound check to get monitors right, he does FOH, I've got zero to do with that. Maybe I should get a wireless and go out there to hear what he does...but feed back from audience members has been positive. Next - backline - I control that strictly for me, I get up to the Fletcher-Munson area and get my good tone, slightly loud, but no one else seems to have an issue - which I can turn down or up with no "can you turn that down" from the sound guy. Matter of fact, I typically do the monitor setup without anything coming from my backline. The FR12 has its own volume and EQ knobs, so I can tweak my presets that way, and crank or not totally separate from FOH and monitors. It's also got tilt legs, so it's all for me me me. I've always put it behind me like a conventional backline. So - once I send my signal to the sound guy, and he feels good with it, there's no bumps/drops, or anything outside of what he does. Yep, preset and scene leveling is important there, but you need to do that in advance. Also, if he's any good and paying attention, he can compensate for some fluctuations in real time. What comes out of the FOH and monitors is all him - unless YOU change what he's getting. The other outputs from the Fractal are totally independent, that's the beauty of this setup. Obviously you can easily give him more or less signal with the output knob on the top of the FM9. He "should" be able to get his level in correctly right then. Old school, I would set my amp, do a sound check, then typically (at least for me), the volume knob on the amp would slightly creep up (usually a waitress would sneak up and turn it up..ha ha), resulting in the inevitable "please turn your amp back down". That's why I'm a little confused, I treat it as two inter-related systems. Once I give a good, complete guitar signal to the PA, any weird results (outside of me not leveling correctly, or some other odd stuff) are all on the sound guy. If he's jacked up, he has to be fixed, not you. Final thought, don't know where to put this - since I take a little of my own sound through my monitor speaker from the PA, outside of getting the right tone, I don't feel the need to crank the backline even more. It's definitely a paradigm adjustment, but there's LOTS more control if you do it in the right way - at least the right way for me. Little edit: looking at your post, there's no need whatsoever for the gross output (all of your sounds together, leaving the FM9) to be related to each other. The complete sound is already cooked up, your just sending it into the world at needed/desired volumes. Output 1 volume can be at 9 o'clock, and output 2 can be at 11 o'clock, No rules there.

Thanks Mike, I agree you while playing, i have little to do with what is happening out in front. I'm glad you get good feedback. I did the preset leveling at home and thought I was good. I adjusted as needed at the gig using the += db foot switch feature. The feedback I get is that the rhythm level FOH is perfect and the solo bump is too much. Frustrating since I'm behind a stage monitor, i'm clicking into the lead scene, and the bump I get is perfect. With regards to the stage volume, i'm all good with that, I can control that easily. So my issue is mostly that the volume bump I get when going from ODS 100 / PAB Scene for lead is perfect on stage, but out front the FOH bump I get is not the same. I'm happy on stage and they are either getting crushed or can't hear me. I need to know how I can make their perceived bump the same as my perceived bump.

Mike, how do you like the FR12? Any complaints? I was thinking of the FR10 or FR12 instead of my qsc K10.

Thanks!

 

[marc0810]

Thanks Marc. I had read that -10 was the normal approach and that +4 was for rack gear or pro audio. And I believe the non linear mixer issue was an issued with the mixer..so I think I'm fine there. 50% sounds good, I think that's about where I was with the signal to the mixer....gave me a good unity level on the Mackie ProV22. I likewise had the PAB scene on the ODS 100 set up a few db louder than the other scenes...and this is where I ran into trouble. that level of bump sounded perfect to me behind a floor wedge, but apparently the level of bump that made in the FOH was overwhelming...so that's the crux of my issue here, how can I get an acceptable level bump when I select as scene for a lead, that is good for me behind my monitor, and also good for the audience hearing hte FOH? This is the problem I need to solve. Thanks!

That’s on your sound guy, when my band runs its own sound we set everything at a certain level on the meter so when my lead boosts kick in it doesn’t blast the audience.

 

[lauke-lux]

Are you going out mono or stereo to FOH and Monitoring?

 

[bluessyndicate]

Are you going out mono or stereo to FOH and Monitoring?

I am playing mono. using Left only for out1 and out2.

 

[bluessyndicate]

That’s on your sound guy, when my band runs its own sound we set everything at a certain level on the meter so when my lead boosts kick in it doesn’t blast the audience.

Well, when the soundman adjusts so that I am not blasting the audience with the lead, then my rhythm scene is not loud enough in the mix. The sound man can only set overall level but not adjust levels of scene vs. scene. only i can do that. So going with that scenario if I then increased the scene level of my rhythm for the FOH, then the problem exists for me on stage. the rhythm scene would be too much. I'd be tempted to lower the rhythm scene level for me on stage, and then my rhythm is low for FOH again. So the issue is that the difference in volume between scenes is differing in out1 vs out2.

 

[greiswig]

Probably helpful to share the preset you're using here. Otherwise we're guessing how loud your boost is, how much treble is in it, etc.

 

[lauke-lux]

Well, when the soundman adjusts so that I am not blasting the audience with the lead, then my rhythm scene is not loud enough in the mix. The sound man can only set overall level but not adjust levels of scene vs. scene. only i can do that. So going with that scenario if I then increased the scene level of my rhythm for the FOH, then the problem exists for me on stage. the rhythm scene would be too much. I'd be tempted to lower the rhythm scene level for me on stage, and then my rhythm is low for FOH again. So the issue is that the difference in volume between scenes is differing in out1 vs out2.

This is related to having done your tweaking at too by low levels. You need to tweak your preset levels and EQ at rehearsal or during a longer sound check.

 

[bluessyndicate]

The preset was the ODS 100, boosted clean scene and PAB scene.

@lauke-lux

I get the suggestion. I'd think that my 3 hr gig, at gig volume was in the spirit of your suggestion. I had the layout that included +- 2db level switches. So, I had 3 hrs of adjusting the level of the two scenes at volume. It was a repetitive cycle of adjusting it to satisfy me on stage, getting feedback that the delta between rhythm and lead was not right FOH, adjusting for that, and then not being satisfied on stage... over and over, and gig levels for 3 hrs.

The one thing that comes to mind is that the FOH volumes and stage volumes could not be equal, because the stage volume would not be acceptable to band mates. So I had out1 at perhaps 30% and Out2 at about 50% to give the mackie prov22 a unity level.

But I'm wondering if perhaps I should have had Out2 set the same as Out1....so that they are equal. Maybe then they would respond the same to the scene levels, and give me the same relative volume bump. just an idea. not sure if that's a fix. open to more feedback. Thanks to all who have chipped in.

 

[Rex]

But I'm wondering if perhaps I should have had Out2 set the same as Out1....so that they are equal. Maybe then they would respond the same to the scene levels, and give me the same relative volume bump. just an idea. not sure if that's a fix. open to more feedback. Thanks to all who have chipped in.

No. Set each output level to whatever is needed by the equipment that it’s plugged into. There is no advantage to setting both knobs to the same position.

 

[md1234]

It was an adjustment for bandmates to mix my signal into their monitors. I expect they can figure that out.

Can it be just as simple as that every person on stage and at the desk was more focused on your tone and that it came from new directions (their monitors), and so every single person had a strong opinion on this, and you where in the middle of that all trying to please everyone?

 

[playmusic]

As posted earlier in this thread, the first thing to do is get your scenes leveled properly. Using the FM9's 'Preset Leveling' tool and your ears is a good method.

Is it possible the gain (not the fader) on your mixer is set too high/hot. Such that when you kick in, for example, a 3db boost for leads on the FM9 you are getting an exponential increase in volume on the mixer?

Are or you are sending line or mic level output from the FM9 to the mixer (-10dBV or +4dBu)? Also do you have output 1 and output 2 set to the same output levels? Not that you can't send different output levels to, for example, an FRFR and FOH but this could result in some perceived volume differences in how a +3db boost might sound on stage versus FOH.

Fractal recommends using a line input rather than a mic/preamp input and using +4dBu output level when you are connecting to a mixer. To me this implies that if you are connecting to a mic preamp you might want to try the -10dBV output setting instead. You can also consult your mixer's manual for more specific info on connection levels and settings.