Dialing in the low end

Tahoebrian5

Tahoebrian5

Fractal Fanatic
I really struggle getting the low to low-mid frequencies to sound how I want them. It seems like I'm always searching for more clarity and string separation. Just reducing bass or gain in the amp block or eq block does not really help. Obviously finding a good IR is key but it still seems like I'm never quite satisfied so I'm wondering what other methods might be useful. Maybe some phasing trick or multi band compressor? Anyway post up if you have any thoughts
 
You are right that choosing the correct IR is important but sometimes with a high gain preset you can find that a source of the mud, lack of clarity, or even harshness can be due to your tonestack location and how you have set your BMT.

If you cannot get the desired result with the above, and if you are dealing with high gain, you may be experiencing intermodulation distortion. This is where using both pre and post distortion eq blocks can be helpful to really craft your tone.

Remember that whatever frequencies are boosted going into your amp block are the ones that will be clipped and compressed the most.
 
Tahoebrian5 said:
I really struggle getting the low to low-mid frequencies to sound how I want them. It seems like I'm always searching for more clarity and string separation. Just reducing bass or gain in the amp block or eq block does not really help. Obviously finding a good IR is key but it still seems like I'm never quite satisfied so I'm wondering what other methods might be useful. Maybe some phasing trick or multi band compressor? Anyway post up if you have any thoughts
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what are you doing now to manipulate your low end?
 
Shenks said:
You are right that choosing the correct IR is important but sometimes with a high gain preset you can find that a source of the mud, lack of clarity, or even harshness can be due to your tonestack location and how you have set your BMT.

If you cannot get the desired result with the above, and if you are dealing with high gain, you may be experiencing intermodulation distortion. This is where using both pre and post distortion eq blocks can be helpful to really craft your tone.

Remember that whatever frequencies are boosted going into your amp block are the ones that will be clipped and compressed the most.
Click to expand...
In which high gain amps to you battle inter modulation distortion? That's one of the reasons for multiple gain stages. And are you sure you're not introducing it as a side effect what signal is fed into, like a tritons will mosdef create with with each strings set of overtones. Especially in equal temperament tuning.
 
Theirs is so much control over the low end in the amp block and the speaker block... speaker tab in the Amp block is where I start with the low res frequency. I'm always lowering that between 80 and 90 and it really rounds things off for me. Then you can raise or lower it to taste. and that's just one area in the Axe..many more...
 
Narrowing the Q of the low resonance frequency in the speaker page of the AMP block, as well as moving the low frequency around in the narrower Q helps solve that problem too.
 
What are you monitoring through? Is it possible that is the problem? There is a significant difference between various studio monitor brands, amp & cab setups, active speakers such as the CLR and Xitone.

Also, I've noticed that folks seem to reach for the 4X12 cabs and IR's, have you tried 2X12's IR's? Big difference in the mids and low end between the two.
 
Cut lows before the amp. Boost them (if you need to) after the amp.

Something to keep in mind: You know those big, ballsy guitar tones that everyone wants to copy but no one quite seems to achieve? They're usually guitar plus bass plus kick drum tones. To get those tones, you need to join up with a drummer and a bass player.
 
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You should be able to get adequate results with just your simple amp parameters and an appropriate IR. There's no real need for advanced tricks.

I'd start with your guitar first - find the right pick-ups that compliment you and your guitar and set their height correctly. What do you have currently?
 
Try lowering the bass knob on the amp, if you need the low end, dial that in artificially using the graphic EQ (IE the mark style offerings)
 
To reply to some of the questions, I've tried multiple guitars and pick ups as well as height adjustments, im playing through asm-12, and I mostly judge my tones on how they sound at band practice. We play fairly loud metal in a full band situation. I guess what I'm looking for is probably already in the box somewhere so it's more a how to train my ear and educate myself on the correct tools to use. Playing with frequencies before the amp.. In many cases I cannot hear any difference. EQ'ing after the amp is either too much low cut, or as soon as I add enough back in it loses clarity. I should also say that the tone I have now is pretty darn good so I'm talking about subtleties here..how to get it from good to next level
 
It strange that it the Marshall that doing that I could see Diezel or Ubers

Ok here is some suggestions
Use the low cut in amp block
Use the EQ in the amp block the 80
And 120 slider
Watch the depth and dynamic depth
Change to perhaps tighter but similar model a JVM orange

Try the Celestion v30 IR 212 sm57
Balanced

I prefer the 212 just because they seem to have more focus

The New Celestion by design seem to have a low end roll off which get tighter tones but still punch in the mids

You will have to buy the Celestion pack it $12 Ithink

Other good cabs in box I use a lot are the 5153 mix it tight and chunky
 
R I Blues said:
What are you monitoring through? Is it possible that is the problem? There is a significant difference between various studio monitor brands, amp & cab setups, active speakers such as the CLR and Xitone.

Also, I've noticed that folks seem to reach for the 4X12 cabs and IR's, have you tried 2X12's IR's? Big difference in the mids and low end between the two.
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Yep 212 do make a diff
I remember reading Justin York and he said 412 live but when he is in the studio he uses the Recto 212 as it just has more focus and clarity less boom
 
Thx guys, I'll try some 2x12 cabs. I'm currently using a prerola 75 with sm57/R121 from the ML Brit collection.
 
Rex said:
Cut lows before the amp. Boost them (if you need to) after the amp.

Something to keep in mind: You know those big, ballsy guitar tones that everyone wants to copy but no one quite seems to achieve? They're usually guitar plus bass plus kick drum tones. To get those tones, you need to join up with a drummer and a bass player.
Click to expand...

I hear alot of pro's run 2 amps parallel to achieve this. Any merit to this? Thanks
 
@Tahoebrian5 I think you've gotten a lot of good advice. However, (don't shoot me guys!) it's all a crap shoot unless:

1. We can hear the sound

2. Use the gear you have

You can get 500 people telling you great things to try. You mention bass but don't mention the artifacts you may be getting and haven't been able to define where the mud is coming from. Understand what I'm saying?

To further explain, certain low end frequencies will destroy your tone. You will not only get bass mud, but you'll start to get that horrible "whoomfing" artifact we can get with high gain tones. Low mids can do this too!

So many things play into what you may be hearing. I literally could write up 6 pages telling you so many things to try, I'd probably confuse you. Lol! I'd love to hear a version of the sound that you don't like that you feel has issues.

The problem there is...if this is something live where you use a sound that changes when you run it into a cab, hearing the sound direct out of the axe will not help. You'd have to mic it properly and record it to let us hear it if that is the case.

For example, if I shared my live sound without my greenback cab, the direct sound straight out of my axe fx would be loaded with bass. But through my cab, this bass is not there.

Just for your head...here are a few things that may help you with high gain sounds.

1. Gain. Too much gain to where a sound trips over itself will ruin the sound in seconds. Most of your hero's are using less gain than you think they are. The less you can play with, the cleaner and better the guitar will cut through the mix/band.

2. The difference between high end treble and gain: a lot of guys use too much gain when in reality, a light treble boost in the right area can give you the appearance of more gain than you are actually using. The problem here is some people over do it and end up with a razor sharp sound that has no definition and is all sizzle. Everything in moderation.

Frequencies like 3k to about 8k can help here. 10k and above will give you what I like to call "air sizzle". They are not as apparent as the others, but can help.

3. Bass frequency selection: like recording/mixing, the right frequencies can make a huge difference. The problem here is, being able to identify what you need or don't need. A guy sitting here telling you to cut or boost something is oblivious to what YOU may be hearing if he hasn't heard the sound.

Example, if your tone is razor sharp and is lacking good bass, and you don't know what is considered good bass, the guy telling you to low cut 150Hz on down, may be stripping out good stuff that isn't there enough to begin with. So starting points from people that have not heard the sound are moot.

Keeping in mind that most guys have too much bass in their tone, being a little more educated about what is good and bad bass can really help.

In my opinion, anything under 80Hz sounds bad to me in a guitar tone. Frequencies from 70 on down bring in sub low artifacts that walk on top of bass guitar and mud up your tone. Lightly they may help, but I've always kept away from that low stuff for guitars. Some like that stuff. I've never had any luck.

Frequencies from 80 - 160Hz can really help you but can also kill you if you go too crazy.

If you look at our 8 band amp eq....80 Hz can give you a little speaker push. Too much and you lose. 120 can help, but too much and when you chug an A it will whoomf and sound like crap. All this of course depends on lots of things like amp you choose, as well as the cab and how much or how little eq it may have.

Quick example....the 2x12 cabs usually have way less low end nasty bass than our 4x12 impulse cabs. It's a matter of just knowing what to do and when.

That said, without knowing what is or what is not in your sound, no one can tell you what to cut or boost. The most important thing you can do, is to learn to identify frequencies. This way you can hear something and in seconds, know what to touch.

4. Always try to eq your effects like chorus, reverb, flange and anything that offers a low cut or high cut. Effects tend to accentuate low end by default. I just put up a new video in my Haas effect thread near the last page that addresses a bit of this so you can hear how much it can really affect things.

So keep some of this is mind. It can really help you. Watch for frequencies from 200 to 350. Too much in that area and you can get mud too. Removing some stuff in those areas can really help if you are hearing low mid congestion or artifacts. Again though...you have to determine if the area is a problem or not before you cut or boost.

Best of luck...and if you want to post a sound for me to listen to where I can give you some insight, feel free. Quite a few on here would be able to help you and put you in the right place. :)
 
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