deep-ish question for the most well-versed of amp builders/modders, & general alchemists

W

warrenlu

Member
well firstly: I am NOT anything akin to an amp builder, tinkerer, etc; I know next to nothing about that whole side of things. to be honest, I've never even owned a tube amp or any guitar gear other than a little yamaha thr10x amp. what happened was, I am/was a bass pure who about 3 years into playing realized he liked writing guitar parts more than playing bass, so I gradually started shifting interest. then, right after the III came out, I had a really fortunate money-thing happen, and decided to make the full jump by getting one + a nice guitar. so that can maybe give you an idea where I'm coming from; I'm basically a little kid (27 now, but I'm mentally 11) who was able to buy a flying sports car before he even knew how to ride a bike with training wheels. so, as you can imagine, this has been QUITE a learning experience for me; I had absolutely NO idea what I was getting myself into. but now, coming up on 3 years later, I feel like I'm really starting to figure it out, and I can honestly say it's the best impulsive purchase I've ever made.

but anyway

at this point, while I feel like I can really only "do" .3% of what the device is capable of, I think I have a decent enough idea of the overall scope of its capabilities; I know that are endless upon endless amounts of possibilities, combinations, frankenstein-esque monsters that can be crafted through it, and I know that to manually (non-virtually) craft all of them would probably take several lifetimes. also, while I don't KNOW because I've never owned any of gear that the models are based off of, I'm going to assume that said models sound and behave/act/respond as similarly to their real-world counterparts as possible. so here, finally, is the question:

when getting into all of the crazy stuff (tonestacking, functionally turning amps into pedals, swapping out tubes and other components), and then pairing that with another heavily-customized item, then a chain of them

how similarly do you think that chain would sound/behave/react to it's "real" counterpart, if you were able to physically recreate it with the actual gear?

I guess on a more general level, at what point do you think the device and its capabilities get to a point where there's no possible real-world comparison to be made? simple things like a quarter turn of the treble knob being an almost absolute, and something like tonestacking two heavily differing pieces of equipment being the "technically possible, but it would take such a long time to get it working"-end of things
 
To loosely quote a friend of mine who owns a studio and professionally records and mixes albums for people: “I only have 100% to mix with.” The idea that you are missing out because you’re only using .3% of the various knobs, options, and theoretical possibilities is a bit misplaced IMHO.

Also, I think the people who created and designed the real life amps deserve a little more credit for making something good.
 
It's all about the following question: are you hearing the sounds that you hear in your head?

If you are, then it doesn't matter if you are using 3% or 98% of a given unit.

If you aren't getting the sounds in your head, that's where analyzing sounds that people achieved that are close to that sound in your head, how they got them, replicating that in Fractal world, and changing it based on your preferences/vision comes into play.

Talking in general terms about this stuff tends to get a little fuzzy.
 
giantslayer said:
To loosely quote a friend of mine who owns a studio and professionally records and mixes albums for people: “I only have 100% to mix with.” The idea that you are missing out because you’re only using .3% of the various knobs, options, and theoretical possibilities is a bit misplaced IMHO.

Also, I think the people who created and designed the real life amps deserve a little more credit for making something good.
Click to expand...
giantslayer said:
To loosely quote a friend of mine who owns a studio and professionally records and mixes albums for people: “I only have 100% to mix with.” The idea that you are missing out because you’re only using .3% of the various knobs, options, and theoretical possibilities is a bit misplaced IMHO.

Also, I think the people who created and designed the real life amps deserve a little more credit for making something good.
Click to expand...

this doesn't really answer my question
 
dr bonkers said:
It's all about the following question: are you hearing the sounds that you hear in your head?

If you are, then it doesn't matter if you are using 3% or 98% of a given unit.

If you aren't getting the sounds in your head, that's where analyzing sounds that people achieved that are close to that sound in your head, how they got them, replicating that in Fractal world, and changing it based on your preferences/vision comes into play.

Talking in general terms about this stuff tends to get a little fuzzy.
Click to expand...

yes, but that isn't the question I'm asking.

I get that it's not an easy answer or thing to gauge, maybe there isn't even a clear one out there. and if that is the case, or the one guy who does have something akin to one never happens to see the post, then that's totally cool. I'm still curious about it, and figure it's worth asking about
 
Most amps "in the wild" vary a lot even between the same models. Put 2 JCM800s side by side and they may sound slightly different to each other. Older Marshalls were known to swap in components of varying types when they had run out of one type and added to that the tolerances between various components can vary. Pots can vary up to 20% (So if one pot is +20% on an amp and the other is -20% on another amp that is a huge difference). Same goes for internal components.
So the amps modelled in the FAS world have a basis to one amp I believe that has been analysed and modelled. Usually it's the best example out there and some of the more modern amps will have better components and less differences. If you were to get some real world ones though and chain them up, they'd sound similar but probably not exactly the same but that would apply if you had two chains of the same type of equipment also (real world amps vs real world amps). If you matched the chain with the original amps modelled and cabs modelled, then you'd be as close as possible. Amps vary, cabs can vary also. Players vary to the extent of putting one player through another guys rig still usually results in that player sounding like him or her. So how much of the sound you hear on records is the equipment or the player? Getting deep with that last one but there's a couple of well known stories, Van Halen through Ted Nugent's rig and also Brian May's spring to mind).
In real life my old (90s) 5150 sound unlike another other 5150 I've come across. Does the FAS model sound like mine. No. Can I get it to....yes and there is the beauty of the product. Yes no two amps in the real world will sound alike and then won't measure up to the FAS model, but the ability is within the box to change that and get as close as possible. The real leaps forward have been with the "feel" of the amps and they are better than they ever were. I doubt we will ever get to 100% "real" but that won't stop Cliff and FAS trying. Is what we have good enough to go out there and make music, hell yes. Is it close enough and do the benefits outweigh the use of old tech. Yes, definitely. Will most of us hang on to our old tech. Probably yes but most will be in storage and not used as we have something now that provides a way to do what we like doing and makes it easier and just as satisfying.
 
Hi Warren,
Congratulations on being able to start with the best. Certainly something many would like to do!
I can only answer from my own varied experience, but when you’re adding blocks as you would in the real world, for example - compressor - wah - flanger - chorus - amp - cab - delay - reverb, I’ve found the modeling to be stunningly accurate. You know when you have a piece of gear that makes you want to play because it feels so good? The axe fix is capable of that, if the components you’ve chosen to model are.
You can also do things that wouldn’t make sense in real life, like cab to amp, cab to cab, amp to amp (I’ve never tried this, perhaps I should!).
Overall, the axe fx does a remarkably good job at emulating amps, cabs, effects etc and if not the best, it’s among the best ind the world. I have recreated some signal chains that were identical to some old gear I had many years ago, and it was like I’d just bought them all again. Hairs up on the back of your neck sort of stuff.
Thanks
Pauly

warrenlu said:
well firstly: I am NOT anything akin to an amp builder, tinkerer, etc; I know next to nothing about that whole side of things. to be honest, I've never even owned a tube amp or any guitar gear other than a little yamaha thr10x amp. what happened was, I am/was a bass pure who about 3 years into playing realized he liked writing guitar parts more than playing bass, so I gradually started shifting interest. then, right after the III came out, I had a really fortunate money-thing happen, and decided to make the full jump by getting one + a nice guitar. so that can maybe give you an idea where I'm coming from; I'm basically a little kid (27 now, but I'm mentally 11) who was able to buy a flying sports car before he even knew how to ride a bike with training wheels. so, as you can imagine, this has been QUITE a learning experience for me; I had absolutely NO idea what I was getting myself into. but now, coming up on 3 years later, I feel like I'm really starting to figure it out, and I can honestly say it's the best impulsive purchase I've ever made.

but anyway

at this point, while I feel like I can really only "do" .3% of what the device is capable of, I think I have a decent enough idea of the overall scope of its capabilities; I know that are endless upon endless amounts of possibilities, combinations, frankenstein-esque monsters that can be crafted through it, and I know that to manually (non-virtually) craft all of them would probably take several lifetimes. also, while I don't KNOW because I've never owned any of gear that the models are based off of, I'm going to assume that said models sound and behave/act/respond as similarly to their real-world counterparts as possible. so here, finally, is the question:

when getting into all of the crazy stuff (tonestacking, functionally turning amps into pedals, swapping out tubes and other components), and then pairing that with another heavily-customized item, then a chain of them

how similarly do you think that chain would sound/behave/react to it's "real" counterpart, if you were able to physically recreate it with the actual gear?

I guess on a more general level, at what point do you think the device and its capabilities get to a point where there's no possible real-world comparison to be made? simple things like a quarter turn of the treble knob being an almost absolute, and something like tonestacking two heavily differing pieces of equipment being the "technically possible, but it would take such a long time to get it working"-end of things
Click to expand...
 
I think it’s great that you’re getting to learn and create with top of the line gear. It’s inspiring, and that’s what music’s all about!

To your specific question, the Axe Fx can create systems that can’t be replicated. For instance, you can put 200 watt amps, running wide open, through small speakers (via their cab sim) without blowing them up. You can run a tube amp with no load at all. You can put a stomp box after the power section of the amp and before the speaker. All of these things are a no-go with the real world amps/speakers/effects, but you can do them in the box.

One of the nicer parts of a virtual setup is the routing, which is a mess in the real world, and can be a beast to alter flow or swap effects. In the Axe Fx, a couple of clicks and you have everything where you want it, sends/returns added or removed as needed, flow redirected easily, and control with a footswitch is near seamless. Pedals like wah or volume can come on automatically with movement, one IA button can change your whole rig, literally!

The biggest thing, for me anyway, that is different from my real world is that I can play amps, cabs, and effects I could never afford or simply don’t have. I’ve actually bought real amps after trying them first in the Axe Fx and liking them there. That says a lot.

I hope that is at least close to an answer.
 
This is the evolution of music technology. It has arrived.

Nothing but good things can result. The accuracy of the system has never been negatively criticized or questioned. Not even by it's biggest loudmouth detractors who usually fixate on price with zero context.

So it's fair to say that any "fictional" rig should be pretty damn close to what would come from an analog counterpart.

You are starting off with the best. It might spoil you.
Everyone should have to play through a Peavey Rage 15 and a Zoom 606 for a while. I did for years. :)
 
touch33 said:
If you can’t do it with an AFX3 it probably can’t be done at all.
Click to expand...

While many agree with you, there are a couple things that arent a focus for the axe fx that other pedals and companies provide.

This is a blanket statement for the axe fx that I find comes up frequently, despite not being true. I think it's fair to recognize that it actually doesnt do everything. That said, what it does do is quite phenomenal and should be recognized as such.
 
Computers are precise, analog amplifiers where each part is +/- 10% at birth and then drift through use are not.

Fractal is attempting to recreate the amps they own, to the best of their ability, at this moment. Is their sample amp’s mid knob 15% off? Are the four tubes perfectly matched and biased? It’s endless. No one complains when it’s a vintage Marshall 30% out of spec because Jim was more interested in drinking than sourcing more accurate parts.
 
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Budda said:
While many agree with you, there are a couple things that arent a focus for the axe fx that other pedals and companies provide.
Click to expand...
Of course there are (looper is my pet peeve), but I believe the OP was referring to amps. I can only speak personally, but I have yet to not be able to create the amp sound I seek — and during decades of live/studio work those sounds are many and quite varied.
 
warrenlu said:
how similarly do you think that chain would sound/behave/react to it's "real" counterpart, if you were able to physically recreate it with the actual gear?
Click to expand...

More than satisfactory. I wouldn't WANT to recreate most of what I do with actual gear. I can experience everything I like about a tube amp without wearing earpro, and my rig sounds more or less the same in every venue I play. Bad power and boomy stages/rooms made tube amps such a headache especially when I'm only using the boring half of the volume knob.
 
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