December 12th, 2010 Austin Ampfest… Axe-fx.

mortega76

Fractal Fanatic
My first “full blown” amp fest… there were plenty of awesome high gain amps to go around, that was for sure. There were four Mills Acoustics cabs, two Marshall 1960BV (edit) cabs, a Port City 2x12 cab with Scumback H75(?) that sounded huge for a 2x12 and a 4x10 cab.

Please chime in with the details of your cabs Matt and Paul…

We did a test between the Mills v30 loaded cab and the Marshall 1960AV v30 loaded cab and all I can say is the Mills (in my opinion) sounded thicker/meatier and much louder… the Marshall 1960AV sounded as if the “volume” was being dispersed in all directions as if the sound was “bleeding” in all directions… whereas the Mills was thick and very focused sounding cab. I never realized how much the cab itself makes in the overall “tone” and “feel” using the same exact speakers. The scumbacks definitely sounded better though...

I got there a bit late so I didn’t get a chance to hear the 5150 in the room to have a sense of how it compares to the other amps…

Evil Pumpkin Marshall (NATAS prototype): I only heard this amp for about 30 seconds and it sounded great going into the Marshall 1960BV (edit) cab… but it wasn’t turned up as loud as I would have liked to have heard it.

Fortin NATAS: Great “marketing” on the 6irth, 6rind, 6gain & kill… first things first. This amp was the best looking amp in attendance hands down… of course this is just my opinion. They plugged in the Natas into the Mills v30 cab and it sounded thick with a lot of low end and high end distortion that sounded very dry. They plugged it into the Marshall 1960BV (edit) cab and it was a lot more “level”… but for me it just sounded as if the low end and high end were “cut off”… The Mills cab just sounded better. It did sound a bit “harsh” but that was because it’s pretty much brand new and hasn’t really been broken in.

Cameron CCV-100: The CCV going into one of the Mills cabs sounded great… it had everything the Fortin didn’t have. Saturated mid and high distortion… each noted being played sounded great… it almost sounded as if each note was being doubled with distortion… very cool. The lows were lacking a bit compared to the Natas for sure… I’m thinking the best combination would have been these two run together! There is a clipping type switch on the Cameron of off, mid or high and it sounded best with the clipping off.

I left the room for a bit after this so I’m sure I missed something…

Matchless into a 4x10 cab… it sounded pretty good driven by the PRS but it didn’t “right” until the Tele and Gibson were running through it… that setup sounded phenomenal for classic rock, rock to country style… very nice.

Diamond Spec OP: We really only heard this amp for about 5 minutes… very nice rock n’ roll sounding amp… again, this sucker was dialed perfectly for the Tele/Gibson guitars. Very nice.

Bad Cat: Into the 2x12 Port City cab sounded pretty good… we didn’t hear it for very long.

Mojave Peacemaker (?): into the Marshall 1960BV (edit)… this amp sounded sooooooo thick in the low-mid and mid area… had almost no sizzle in the high end whatsoever. I’m sure it was just dialed that way but I must say that I liked it for the Billy Gibbons style and blues riffs that were being played on this amp.

Marshall (edit: Mercury OT and Choke added) JVM: This was the best overall sounding amp of the entire bunch… I don’t know if my ears were fried by this time or what but that sucker sounded great. Great low end, great mids/highs… and great saturated distortion.

Then finally my…

Axe-fx Ultra Power by Peavey PV1500: I was expecting great things from my setup and so was everyone else… but sad to say that the Axe-fx had no “dynamics” or “feel” when compared to every amp there… It was pushing 300 watts per side (at 8ohm) into the Mills cabs… Let’s keep in mind that the Axe-fx followed the best sounding amp (modded JVM) in the whole room, so this may have played a part in the overall opinion we had of the Axe-fx setup… I initially thought it had to be that there wasn’t “enough juice” going into the cabs so I bridged it at 1000 watts (8 ohm) and it still didn’t have the “dynamics” or “feel”… we tried a couple of different amp sims… 5150, Das Metall, Brit 800 and HBE. The HBE sounded the “worst” of the bunch, very “honky” sounding… the best was the Brit 800. The same patch that “killed” at the last “mini amp fest” sounded decent but lacked any depth or mid-range “body”. The thing everyone immediately noticed was how “quiet” the Axe-fx was… almost little to no noise when compared to every other amp. But that same “noise” is what I think “filled” in every other amp’s overall sound. I really need to look into getting the Fryette 2/90/2… very disappointing.
 
Seems like you return disappointed from an "amp fest" each month, and upset by the absence of noise...
You can use the Synth to generate noise.... ;)
 
yek said:
Seems like you return disappointed from an "amp fest" each month, and upset by the absence of noise...
You can use the Synth to generate noise.... ;)
hahahahaha... no kidding... there's just something about those tube amps that "fill in" a space that my Axe-fx setup doesn't.

I really think I just need to get the Fryette 2/90/2 and be done with it. Or I was also thinking of getting a tube amp and running into the power section (4CM) into the amp. What I like about these "amp fests" is that they allow me to compare my Axe-fx to great tube (and modded) amps... that way they give me a good idea of where my tone is lacking.
 
If that's what you're after you should get one of those amps (at a time, ;)) in the room with your Axe/PV setup and tweak it to match through the same cab. Use a loop switch. I'm not convinced the PV is such a detracting factor in all this. I think you can get much closer. For scientific reasons of course.

Make sure to not use any effects when doing this.
 
Before you buy a tube poweramp read this:

http://www.guitar-list.com/guitar-science/tube-versus-solid-state-amplifiers

I thought about it and have three different suggestions:

1. PEQ Block as last block in the signal chain, F1: peaking 75Hz q4 gain +6, F5: shelv 3500hz q0.3 gain+6
I can't try it for myself so these settings are just starting points.

2. Instead load an impedance curve to one of the cab slots. Redwirez sells them with (some of) their IRs.
You can mix that with the dry signal (shunt in parallel) to get more or less of the desired tube amp impedance curve sim.

3. The easiest: amp block advanced settings: Tweak LF resonance to 2.5 and HF resonance to 10.
 
One thing you could try is to select ANALOG REAR in the I/O menu: The ANALOG FRONT source option is, I suspect, applying some low pass filtering to the signal to reduce noise, which is why it is so quiet. (It also makes a simple delay sound a bit muddy though, which is how I found this out.) Selecting ANALOG REAR brightens up the tone and gives you back the noise.
 
markpoletti said:
The ANALOG FRONT source option is, I suspect, applying some low pass filtering to the signal
No. Do a search of the forum. When you use the front input, you need to select the front input, and likewise for the rear. Otherwise you'll get unexpected (and very audible) deviations in the frequency response.

Selecting ANALOG REAR brightens up the tone
Uhh, yes, because the effect of doing that is to boost high frequencies.

This subject has been beaten to death. Rather than speculate - incorrectly, as it turns out - about how the Axe-Fx works, you should search the forum and read the manual. Selecting the front input (when you're using that input) does not reduce high frequencies at all.
 
DieSchmalle said:
Before you buy a tube poweramp read this:

http://www.guitar-list.com/guitar-science/tube-versus-solid-state-amplifiers

I thought about it and have three different suggestions:

1. PEQ Block as last block in the signal chain, F1: peaking 75Hz q4 gain +6, F5: shelv 3500hz q0.3 gain+6
I can't try it for myself so these settings are just starting points.

2. Instead load an impedance curve to one of the cab slots. Redwirez sells them with (some of) their IRs.
You can mix that with the dry signal (shunt in parallel) to get more or less of the desired tube amp impedance curve sim.

3. The easiest: amp block advanced settings: Tweak LF resonance to 2.5 and HF resonance to 10.

Hey, interesting link.

I thought that I'd add a bit of harmonically interesting information. The chart is from the article.
harmonic-distortion-graph.jpg


These are the harmonic relationships.
1=fundamental
2=octave
3=perfect 5th
4=octave
5=just 3rd
6=perfect 5th
7=just minor 7th
8=octave
9=just major 2nd

With emphasis on the even harmonics, the flavor is tilted towards a lot of perfect tones and with emphasis on the odd harmonics you get the flavor of a just dominant 9 chord. A dominant 9 chord sounds somewhat unpleasant and unstable in equal temperment but if you've ever heard a just dominant 9 chord, it's a beautiful thing. It has stability and (I think) sounds quite consonant.

Just thought I'd share.
 
goodwill559 said:
DieSchmalle said:
Before you buy a tube poweramp read this:

http://www.guitar-list.com/guitar-science/tube-versus-solid-state-amplifiers

I thought about it and have three different suggestions:

1. PEQ Block as last block in the signal chain, F1: peaking 75Hz q4 gain +6, F5: shelv 3500hz q0.3 gain+6
I can't try it for myself so these settings are just starting points.

2. Instead load an impedance curve to one of the cab slots. Redwirez sells them with (some of) their IRs.
You can mix that with the dry signal (shunt in parallel) to get more or less of the desired tube amp impedance curve sim.

3. The easiest: amp block advanced settings: Tweak LF resonance to 2.5 and HF resonance to 10.

Hey, interesting link.

I thought that I'd add a bit of harmonically interesting information. The chart is from the article.
harmonic-distortion-graph.jpg


These are the harmonic relationships.
1=fundamental
2=octave
3=perfect 5th
4=octave
5=just 3rd
6=perfect 5th
7=just minor 7th
8=octave
9=just major 2nd

With emphasis on the even harmonics, the flavor is tilted towards a lot of perfect tones and with emphasis on the odd harmonics you get the flavor of a just dominant 9 chord. A dominant 9 chord sounds somewhat unpleasant and unstable in equal temperment but if you've ever heard a just dominant 9 chord, it's a beautiful thing. It has stability and (I think) sounds quite consonant.

Just thought I'd share.
Wow... I have no clue what you just said... :lol:

So correct me if I'm "reading" this chart incorrectly...

Is it saying that the the frequencies at 1, 2, (almost) 3, 4, almost (5), 6 are going to be more "true to form" using tube power? And the others with SS power? This could explain why SS sounds harsher, maybe?
 
yek said:
Seems like you return disappointed from an "amp fest" each month, and upset by the absence of noise...
You can use the Synth to generate noise.... ;)

just put a little neon lighting in the cavity and turn the tone pot into a dimmer knob and dial in the noise lol... just kiddin mo but hey this could be a new sound no one even knows yet :lol:
 
The Tube vs. Solid State article is interesting, but I don't see how it applies. The amp sims in the Axe will provide the tube response curve, so why would you want to add further distortion externally? To the OP, you need to do a blind comparison between a real tube amp and a properly adjusted Axe preset.
 
LMO said:
The Tube vs. Solid State article is interesting, but I don't see how it applies. The amp sims in the Axe will provide the tube response curve, so why would you want to add further distortion externally? To the OP, you need to do a blind comparison between a real tube amp and a properly adjusted Axe preset.

The obvious difference between tube and solid state amps is the impedance curve and therefore the frequency response.
This means that you can eq a solid state amp to sound almost like a tube amp. This again means that the op can achieve the sound of the fryette without buying it.
 
rsf1977 said:
yek said:
Seems like you return disappointed from an "amp fest" each month, and upset by the absence of noise...
You can use the Synth to generate noise.... ;)

just put a little neon lighting in the cavity and turn the tone pot into a dimmer knob and dial in the noise lol... just kiddin mo but hey this could be a new sound no one even knows yet :lol:
This way it will look like my Axe-fx has tubes!!! Then it'll give me the placebo effect and I'd be good to go! ;) :lol:
 
mortega76 said:
goodwill559 said:
DieSchmalle said:
Before you buy a tube poweramp read this:

http://www.guitar-list.com/guitar-science/tube-versus-solid-state-amplifiers

I thought about it and have three different suggestions:

1. PEQ Block as last block in the signal chain, F1: peaking 75Hz q4 gain +6, F5: shelv 3500hz q0.3 gain+6
I can't try it for myself so these settings are just starting points.

2. Instead load an impedance curve to one of the cab slots. Redwirez sells them with (some of) their IRs.
You can mix that with the dry signal (shunt in parallel) to get more or less of the desired tube amp impedance curve sim.

3. The easiest: amp block advanced settings: Tweak LF resonance to 2.5 and HF resonance to 10.

Hey, interesting link.

I thought that I'd add a bit of harmonically interesting information. The chart is from the article.
harmonic-distortion-graph.jpg


These are the harmonic relationships.
1=fundamental
2=octave
3=perfect 5th
4=octave
5=just 3rd
6=perfect 5th
7=just minor 7th
8=octave
9=just major 2nd

With emphasis on the even harmonics, the flavor is tilted towards a lot of perfect tones and with emphasis on the odd harmonics you get the flavor of a just dominant 9 chord. A dominant 9 chord sounds somewhat unpleasant and unstable in equal temperment but if you've ever heard a just dominant 9 chord, it's a beautiful thing. It has stability and (I think) sounds quite consonant.

Just thought I'd share.
Wow... I have no clue what you just said... :lol:

So correct me if I'm "reading" this chart incorrectly...

Is it saying that the the frequencies at 1, 2, (almost) 3, 4, almost (5), 6 are going to be more "true to form" using tube power? And the others with SS power? This could explain why SS sounds harsher, maybe?

Though many have posited that interpretation, I purposefully avoided writing anything which would suggest harshness or trueness of the harmonic content represented by the chart, and in particular to the debate of solid state v. vacuum tube sound characteristics. Such an interpretation would be at best ambiguous and at worst misleading.

The timbre of an instrument is determined by the overtones it produces and to what degree they are present. [This is what makes a piano sound different from a violin which sounds different from a clarinet which sounds different from a saxaphone, etc. or what makes picking or bowing close to the bridge sound different from picking or bowing near the neck.]

Showing a chart of the harmonic content of said instruments is no more nourishing to a musician/composer/listener than is showing a drowning man a picture of oxygen. [Taken from one of my favorite quotes from Dr. Manhattan in the Movie, the Watchmen {I don't recall if that was in the graphic novel or not...}]

It was a bit off-topic, but I just wanted to share my interest in temperament which was triggered by the chart. I currently have a just tempered fretboard on one of my guitars.

As to the topic, I agree with many of the other contributors of this thread that the power amp section modeling of the Axe-Fx is sufficient to reproduce the sounds within the range of vacuum tube powered guitar amplifiers (and beyond) and that with enough experience, one will be able to achieve one's sonic goal.
 
I noticed in the article both poweramps were driven to 5% THD. Wouldn't that be much more than you would like to run an SS amp at? If so wouldn't the "odd harmonics"-content of the SS amp be stronger than it would be when run at more reasonable THD? And still the difference is barely noticable.
Of course, since tube amps easily run at these THDs and more, one would need a way more powerful SS amp to get similar sound pressure.

Now in Mo's situation, he has 1000W bridged which sounds pretty powerful to me. So that should be OK to be able to run with low enough THD, assuming the poweramp doesn't alter the tone some other way. The tube poweramp simulation should be covered by the Axe-FX. Then two possibilities are left: either he hasn't tweaked it right or the Axe-FX just can't do it.



Entry level power amp article, looks pretty correct:
http://www.rocketroberts.com/techart/amp.htm
 
FWIW, the whole "toobz always have moar even harmonix!!" thing is not necessarily true when talking about digital amp sims (and probably not even all solid state amp topologies in general), IIRC, so I wouldn't read too much into that. Also that is with regard to distortion specifically... So, regardless of the validity of that rule, just don't intentionally push a solid state amp (or any other part of the output system) into significant distortion and it should be fine if the amp sim is good...

With a modern DSP, I believe you could create an amp sim that distorted with almost nothing but even harmonic content pretty easily, so as long as the power amp system is linear (not distorting significantly as per the above) you should be able to get close to virtually any arbitrary mix you wanted.
 
DonnieNeo said:
Maybe you should invest in an Atomic amp rig to hear the Axe-fx like it was meant to be heard :) ........Donnie
I would... if it was a 100 watt stereo 2U rackmount power amp... I've tried the Carvin TS100 tube power amp and in my setup 50 watts was nowhere near enough.
 
mortega76,

I've noticed that in lots of your threads (and responses in other people's threads) that you seem to be bent on using your Axe FX as a high gain head or pre-amp and run it through power amps and guitar cabinets. You seem to repeatedly be disappointed. You also seem to be more of a high gain / 1 general sound type of person. Why not just buy whatever head that you think sounds the best and either use your Axe FX for effects, or sell it? I'm not being sarcastic. I'm just noticing the trend. Not every piece of gear is for everybody. The Axe FX is probably least appropriate for people who play only 1 type of music. For those people (especially those who don't think that the Axe FX sounds as good as whatever amp that makes their favorite sound), I think that they're better off with 1 traditional amp that suits them best. Maybe you're one of those people?
 
Back
Top Bottom