Cut through the mix: something I do not understand

316ms said:
Question, I wanted to post this here since it is a thread concerning live or band tones and mixes.
I have 3 output sources to use in my band/gig. IEM, FRFR , PA and cab. What I dont have is the ability to dial in my tones at even half gig volume, you guessed it..In an apartment. Anyone with any experience having to take this route and would share advice would be cool! I really wish It were not this way, I would feel better if I could crank the rig and be sure the tones are not to much or not enough of this or that..It seems the IEM would make the most sense but does that translate to exactly what goes outfront?
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I would try to show up early to test your cab at volume in the venue, and focus EQ on taming lows and highs.

If you have a chance to listen at half volume in your apartment, the bass and treble should sound really lame and subdued. If the bass is bumping and the treble is crisp at low volume, it will be death at high volumes.
 
Seems like things are getting a little complicated here.

Re: IEM volume level — while F/M Curve can be a valid conversational topic it assumes the listener and source are in a free-space environment that itself is accurate (pretty rare) and has a RT60 “reverb” time of its own. IEMs have no such “free space” b/c it’s just them, your ear canals and your eardrums — IEMs “remove the room” (thank God).

My workflow is to use a prerecorded music source and dial the IEM volume up to a comfortable level that sounds good and isn’t blowing your eardrums out (the whole idea behind IEMs to begin with). Now optimize some of your fave FACTORY presets for that volume level and save in an IEM-specific memory location. You can also test your presets along with that prerecorded music source to see how your adjusted presets sound “with a band playing”. Compare what you’ve created to what you started with and note the changes (since most factory presets sound pretty dang good “live” in FRFR and PA feeds). Do keep in mind that the “stage content” when you play live (bass player, kick drum/etc.) may mean getting a good mix in your IEMs requires dialing back your preset LF content a smidge.

I try to keep in mind that if the IEMs don’t sound good it has a negative affect on both your playing/performance AND their value to you as a tool to protect your hearing (volume increase to try to “hear better”). Get those IEMs right — then see what (if any) changes need to be made with EQ/level to your other feeds.
 
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I’d just like to add cutting thru a mix is the Soundguy’s job, not really yours. There are a lot of folks running around with a PA and very few soundguys in my experience locally. It’s their job to create a band mix where everything is presented well. It’s your job to craft a tone you’re happy with. If he needs more or less of something from you, he or she should know it and ask.
 
Bruce Sokolovic said:
I’d just like to add cutting thru a mix is the Soundguy’s job, not really yours. There are a lot of folks running around with a PA and very few soundguys in my experience locally. It’s their job to create a band mix where everything is presented well. It’s your job to craft a tone you’re happy with. If he needs more or less of something from you, he or she should know it and ask.
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You have sound guys?....very rare in my world
 
Corinthian said:
It's not about cutting through it's about fitting in.

Listen to isolated guitar tracks from records you love. You'll find the guitar on its own sounds pretty awful - shrill, nasal, buzzy. A tone that sounds good on its own usually doesn't sound good in a mix and vice versa.
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Never truer words spoken.

1. Fitting in

I can’t play anything below Cb. B and lower just sounds terrible to my ears and poaches too much territory from the bass, IMO.

2. Isolated tracks

I got a dongle that allows me to play backing tracks with the guitars removed through my AF3 and FRFR speaker.

Initially, I was confused as to why my badass tones sounded so bad with bass/drums/vox. Way too much gain and bass, no midrange.

Finally dialed in a tone that sat beautifully in the mix and had a ton of fun.

Came back the next day and was astonished at how crappy that same patch sounded without the rest of the band, but it still worked great with the backing track.

Then I fell down the rabbit hole of listening to famous songs with the guitars isolated and it’s like you said - some of those famous tones sound wretched without the bass to fill in the bottom.
 
Deadlifts_n_Riffs said:
Never truer words spoken.

1. Fitting in

I can’t play anything below Cb. B and lower just sounds terrible to my ears and poaches too much territory from the bass, IMO.

2. Isolated tracks

I got a dongle that allows me to play backing tracks with the guitars removed through my AF3 and FRFR speaker.

Initially, I was confused as to why my badass tones sounded so bad with bass/drums/vox. Way too much gain and bass, no midrange.

Finally dialed in a tone that sat beautifully in the mix and had a ton of fun.

Came back the next day and was astonished at how crappy that same patch sounded without the rest of the band, but it still worked great with the backing track.

Then I fell down the rabbit hole of listening to famous songs with the guitars isolated and it’s like you said - some of those famous tones sound wretched without the bass to fill in the bottom.
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Stop by the Les Paul forum and see the ungodly amounts of money people spend to get “slashtone” when its literally any humbucker guitar and a 500 dollar JCM900 or a DSL.
 
stereotactic said:
Don’t forget about multiband compression for the lows/low mids of the guitar. It can help the guitar get out of the way of toms, kick drum resonance and the bass. This is especially useful with extended rage guitars, 7+ strings. I always start out with the fullest tone I can, then apply multiband. I almost never have to do more than the usual guitar brightening eq after setting the multiband.
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Can you give me a quick and dirty intro to this? Didn’t even realize it was a thing, and now I gots to know
 
Dialing in at gig volume is the ONLY way to make a live sound go.

FSM help me. I spent YEARS (decades) not understanding this. Tweak up a great tone at practice/bedroom volume and then disappear onstage.

If your cab is barking at talking levels, it's gonna puke when the drummer hits a cymbal.

Encouragingly enough, the same thing happens when you record.

I'm also of the opinion that delays and verbs will shove you in a hole, unless they are filtered. Cut the crap out of the lows and highs on your time effects.

I ignored all this stuff when I was 25 and knew it all.
 
stink said:
Here's a perfect example of "sounds like crap on its own." This is Vivian Campbell's isolated guitar tracks from Holy Diver, rainbow in the dark. Solo is at the 2:00 mark. Sync it up with the original in your DAW. Sounds terrible solo but fits in the mix.

I realized some of the great guitar tones I've chased over the years are nothing what I though they were.
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Do you know whether that track was solo'd from the original source track or isolated from the mix using software?
 
CactusTone said:
Do you know whether that track was solo'd from the original source track or isolated from the mix using software?
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It’s so old, I have no idea where I got it. I believe it was solo’d from the original source track. It lines up perfectly in the DAW when playing over the original as well. And minus the reverb to give it depth, it is the same basic tone
 
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316ms said:
It would be different for sure, play with the IEM, have significant other turn on the hair dryer hold it close to ears, turn up IEM until you dont hear the hair dryer or perhaps barely hear it, it having a unique frequency would exist ,I believe it would be a decent test
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I don't think that'd work right. IEMs reduce external noise, whether they're fitted or use regular ol' tips, so all external sounds are reduced by some amount, and the resulting volume would be the hair dryer's volume minus the external noise reduction of the IEMs, not the actual sound level of the dryer.
 
Greg Ferguson said:
I don't think that'd work right. IEMs reduce external noise, whether they're fitted or use regular ol' tips, so all external sounds are reduced by some amount, and the resulting volume would be the hair dryer's volume minus the external noise reduction of the IEMs, not the actual sound level of the dryer.
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If you’re trying to get a comparative level (“as loud as a hairdryer” or whatev) just hold said reference source in front of you, pop out one IEM and set your IEM source to a similar level. I guess…

The Big Kids (mostly monitor mixers/techs who have to deal with whiny rock stars and their chosen custom IEMs — often different brands/devices on the same monitor system/tour) use one of these:

https://audixusa.com/products/tm2/

to verify IEM specs/levels/functionality in a calibrated and repeatable manner. Accurate levels can be yours for a mere $1,299 (plus the cost of an analyzer app like Smaart to run it), and it’s an excellent way to solve a variety of issues. Or you can just set your level to as low a volume level as is comfortable for you — the main idea behind IEMs to begin with.
 
touch33 said:
If you’re trying to get a comparative level (“as loud as a hairdryer” or whatev) just hold said reference source in front of you, pop out one IEM and set your IEM source to a similar level. I guess…
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I’m not sure how accurate that would be... Maybe?

You'll find the sound of one IEM vs both is significantly quieter.

I don't know what would be a good way to measure it and I've kind of wondered how the IEM levels are properly measured.
 
Yes, it's not as apparently loud with one ear out – but that doesn't change the sound pressure level in the ear where the IEM is still in and working. ALL of the volume level we perceive is based on how much air pressure/movement reaches our eardrum(s) – and that doesn't change in one ear by popping the other side loose. The only thing that changes is that you have ONE source of eardrum excitement instead of two, hence the apparent reduction in perceived volume. I promise if you try this method when you have both sides back in and working you'll experience the level you seek.

FWIW, I have ALWAYS encouraged clients to start with the lowest IEM level they can – and then work with me during rehearsal/soundcheck to get their EQ/mix "right" before resorting to simply increasing the volume level. Obviously if the stage volume gets louder during a show the artist is usually going to reach around to their beltpack and dial up more volume as well – it's just human nature.

Regarding "a good way to measure it" you may wish to follow the link in my post about the Audix TM2. The TM2 works – every time. A great problem solver that's worth its cost when you do this sort of thing for a living.
 
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touch33 said:
Yes, it's not as apparently loud with one ear out – but that doesn't change the sound pressure level in the ear where the IEM is still in and working. ALL of the volume level we perceive is based on how much air pressure/movement reaches our eardrum(s) – and that doesn't change in one ear by popping the other side loose. The only thing that changes is that you have ONE source of eardrum excitement instead of two, hence the apparent reduction in perceived volume. I promise if you try this method when you have both sides back in and working you'll experience the level you seek.

FWIW, I have ALWAYS encouraged clients to start with the lowest IEM level they can – and then work with me during rehearsal/soundcheck to get their EQ/mix "right" before resorting to simply increasing the volume level. Obviously if the stage volume gets louder during a show the artist is usually going to reach around to their beltpack and dial up more volume as well – it's just human nature.

Regarding "a good way to measure it" you may wish to follow the link in my post about the Audix TM2. The TM2 works – every time. A great problem solver that's worth its cost when you do this sort of thing for a living.
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Thanks... I guess I read right past the part of your post, somehow.
 
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