Cut through the mix: something I do not understand

Seems to me that the IEMs are the “hardest boss to please” in that any “warts” are most likely to show up there first (and to the greatest degree). My thought would be that (given apartment living) anything that works in your IEM output can most likely be solved in the other outputs using output EQ (and/or console EQ in the PA) and I find it by far the hardest to get things “right” in my IEMs. Ditto with using studio monitors — typically if it’s “right” there (and the monitors are, of course, accurate to begin with) it should translate 95% well elsewhere.
 
316ms said:
Question, I wanted to post this here since it is a thread concerning live or band tones and mixes.
I have 3 output sources to use in my band/gig. IEM, FRFR , PA and cab. What I dont have is the ability to dial in my tones at even half gig volume, you guessed it..In an apartment. Anyone with any experience having to take this route and would share advice would be cool! I really wish It were not this way, I would feel better if I could crank the rig and be sure the tones are not to much or not enough of this or that..It seems the IEM would make the most sense but does that translate to exactly what goes outfront?
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Use headphones or your IEM. Make sure their frequency response is reasonably flat, or flatten them by adding a compensating EQ curve. Turn up the volume so it's the equivalent of your stage volume to counter the Fletcher-Munson effect.

Typically I adjust my EQ once using a GEQ or PEQ block immediately before my OUT 1 block. Once I'm happy with the sound I remove the block and save the preset again. I don't need to make an adjustment to the preset's EQ later, and only use the global EQ if something needs to be adjusted for the room.
 
touch33 said:
typically if it’s “right” there (and the monitors are, of course, accurate to begin with) it should translate 95% well elsewhere.
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… and the monitors are positioned correctly and the room has a reasonably flat response.

If the monitoring system is correct then we can trust the output, and if it's not then everything is skewed one way or another, and adjusting for the stage will be more difficult because you can't trust what you're hearing. We've had so many threads where people can't get a sound they like, and I'm sure that many of them are the result of their monitors and room not being set up correctly.
 
touch33 said:
Seems to me that the IEMs are the “hardest boss to please” in that any “warts” are most likely to show up there first (and to the greatest degree). My thought would be that (given apartment living) anything that works in your IEM output can most likely be solved in the other outputs using output EQ (and/or console EQ in the PA) and I find it by far the hardest to get things “right” in my IEMs. Ditto with using studio monitors — typically if it’s “right” there (and the monitors are, of course, accurate to begin with) it should translate 95% well elsewhere.
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Your saying if your studio monitors are giving great tones at low volume that will translate to a good live volume at venue level? My hurtle with IEM is that it's at a low volume just like the frfr, which IMO would be fairly close to a studio monitor as far as sounding good at low volumes. maybe I misunderstood you. I'm old and have lost some hearing to certain frequencies, part of playing live, so the IEM is great sounding, I will probably just have to trust it. However IEM does not represent a low end and or how much low end. Not a frequency I want much of but it does need to be included. Maybe I am just corked and will have to deal with it
 
Greg Ferguson said:
Use headphones or your IEM. Make sure their frequency response is reasonably flat, or flatten them by adding a compensating EQ curve. Turn up the volume so it's the equivalent of your stage volume to counter the Fletcher-Munson effect.

Typically I adjust my EQ once using a GEQ or PEQ block immediately before my OUT 1 block. Once I'm happy with the sound I remove the block and save the preset again. I don't need to make an adjustment to the preset's EQ later, and only use the global EQ if something needs to be adjusted for the room.
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I like this approach and it makes good sense. Using the eq curve and RTA is a good way to see what's going on and make minor adjustments as in the CC video. It's best to use your ears as I am a firm believer in, unfortunately at low volumes it's not that simple. I will have to rely on things you suggest. You get the eq you like and then remove the block? I'm not understanding, I thought using the block got the eq where you wanted it? Or that's a indication it's a reasonable signal for FOH to work with?
 
316ms said:
Your saying if your studio monitors are giving great tones at low volume that will translate to a good live volume at venue level?
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No, that won't translate. The Fletcher-Munson effect won't be countered by low-volume, it has to be 90+ dB.

316ms said:
My hurtle with IEM is that it's at a low volume just like the frfr, which IMO would be fairly close to a studio monitor as far as sounding good at low volumes. maybe I misunderstood you. I'm old and have lost some hearing to certain frequencies, part of playing live, so the IEM is great sounding, I will probably just have to trust it. However IEM does not represent a low end and or how much low end. Not a frequency I want much of but it does need to be included. Maybe I am just corked and will have to deal with it
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Read about the effect mentioned above. Volume, realistic volume, whether it's in IEMs, headphones, monitors, FRFR or a backline, is essential to reduce its effect. Whatever you use to generate the sound when you're adjusting, has to be something you know is a reliable, accurate, source.

We keep a very quiet house, so I rely on Sennheiser HD-650, beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro and Blue Mo-Fi headphones, with a flattening/compensating EQ curve, when I'm adjusting my presets. The volume is at 90-ish dB. I've learned that my EV PXM-12MP cabs reproduce the sound very well, and it takes a minor adjustment using either the cab's power-amps, or the global EQ, to fix anything I don't like once I'm on the stage.
 
316ms said:
You get the eq you like and then remove the block?
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Yes. The EQ block is only to flatten the sound to compensate for any curves in the headphones or IEMs while adjusting the preset, then I remove the block. At that point, I know the preset is going to generate a good sound.

The factory presets are built and adjusted at stage volume and need to be auditioned and used for performance at the same sort of volume. The same is true for our own personal presets.

316ms said:
I'm not understanding, I thought using the block got the eq where you wanted it?
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No. That's what the Amp and Cab and any other EQ in the effect blocks are for when doing this.

316ms said:
Or that's a indication it's a reasonable signal for FOH to work with?
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Yes.
 
Greg Ferguson said:
No, that won't translate. The Fletcher-Munson effect won't be countered by low-volume, it has to be 90+ dB.


Read about the effect mentioned above. Volume, realistic volume, whether it's in IEMs, headphones, monitors, FRFR or a backline, is essential to reduce its effect. Whatever you use to generate the sound when you're adjusting, has to be something you know is a reliable, accurate, source.

We keep a very quiet house, so I rely on Sennheiser HD-650, beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro and Blue Mo-Fi headphones, with a flattening/compensating EQ curve, when I'm adjusting my presets. The volume is at 90-ish dB. I've learned that my EV PXM-12MP cabs reproduce the sound very well, and it takes a minor adjustment using either the cab's power-amps, or the global EQ, to fix anything I don't like once I'm on the stage.
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Yea FM curve is exactly why I posted. That's why I am a bit reserved about IEM and how it translates, I cant get 90db in my ear and survive it , not that you suggested that of course. I have my global PP for eq essentials , in theory I would like to eq in IEM and then hear the live result at volume ,
 
316ms said:
Where would I find if my IEM is outputing at 90db
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Typically the specs show the SPL at a given voltage, but how that translates to the output of your preset is a different issue.

Borrow the hairdryer, turn it on, then listen to the preset and adjust the Out knob until it sounds the same?

And, yes, you don't want to be in a room at 132 dB. 110 dB is stupid loud, 106 dB is so loud I can't discern speech, the band sounds like mud and I'll leave.
 
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Here's a perfect example of "sounds like crap on its own." This is Vivian Campbell's isolated guitar tracks from Holy Diver, rainbow in the dark. Solo is at the 2:00 mark. Sync it up with the original in your DAW. Sounds terrible solo but fits in the mix.

I realized some of the great guitar tones I've chased over the years are nothing what I though they were.
 

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Greg Ferguson said:
Typically the specs show the SPL at a given voltage, but how that translates to the output of your preset is a different issue.

Borrow the hairdryer, turn it on, then listen to the preset and adjust the Out knob until it sounds the same?
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Worth a try. Between that and keeping the eq curve somewhat flat or maybe a mild bump at 3.0 db in the gain setting( as shown in the CC vid) maybe I'm safe
 
stink said:
Here's a perfect example of "sounds like crap on its own." This is Vivian Campbell's isolated guitar tracks from Holy Diver, rainbow in the dark. Solo is at the 2:00 mark. Sync it up with the original in your DAW. Sounds terrible solo but fits in the mix.

I realized some of the great guitar tones I've chased over the years are nothing what I though they were.
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One of my favorite influences! Thanks for the clip
 
316ms said:
The chart he left in the message is a very good measure in many examples that it gives, some.poeple have db meter , however I do not
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yeah i saw that but im not really sure how to compare a hairdryer to playing with IEM's dB wise
 
Jipps0525 said:
yeah i saw that but im not really sure how to compare a hairdryer to playing with IEM's dB wise
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It would be different for sure, play with the IEM, have significant other turn on the hair dryer hold it close to ears, turn up IEM until you dont hear the hair dryer or perhaps barely hear it, it having a unique frequency would exist ,I believe it would be a decent test
 
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