Counteracting Fletcher-Munsen live

Spawn2031

Inspired
Hey guys, I have an absolutely killer tone matched patch that I love using for just about everything and plan on using it live. I am completely aware of how the Fletcher Munsen curve augments highs/lows and drops out mids at high volumes but I never seem to really be able to counteract it very well. So my question is ....

1) Where is the most effective place to try and counteract that effect? In the Amp block eq or a separate EQ after the cab? (currently I am trying to correct it at the mixing board)

2) And also, what control is primarily responsible for that "spongy" sound? I've got it at low to mid volumes but that drops out as well when I crank it to band levels
 
When I dial in my presets, I get them to sound as I want. Then when Mrs. Geeze goes shopping, I crank my studio amp and tweak the presets based on the gig volume. What gets tweaked really depends on the amp and cab I use for the preset. I find that I don't have to do a lot of tweaking, but that's just me. My answer is probably not very helpful, so I apologize. Just crank whatever you are playing through to gig volume. But do be careful as loud volume for a sustained time can damage your hearing. Hearing damage cannot be reversed.
 
2) And also, what control is primarily responsible for that "spongy" sound? I've got it at low to mid volumes but that drops out as well when I crank it to band levels

This is where FM drives me insane as well. I'll be watching this post to see what folks say as well.
 
I have an F-M switch on my MFC. It's an EQ with the bass and treble rolled down. Bass alot...treble a little less. Works in a pinch. But getting the preset close to begin with is most important.
 
As an audiologist as well as musician, I see lots of guys trying to compensate for some degree of hearing loss by dialing in way too much highs and such. Because they aren’t hearing accurately, they think they need to dial more treble that someone with normal hearing would feel Necessary.

Point being, make sure you have an accurate basis for making these tonal tweaks, both in terms of playback system as well as your auditory system.
 
Rolling off highs and lows is not THE solution to FM, but it helps.

Easy to apply across presets when using a Global Cab block on the Axe-Fx.

I’ve settled on 150 Hz / 5.5 kHz @ 12 dB.

Alt. use the Global EQ, although that allows less fine tuning.
 
Rolling off highs and lows is not THE solution to FM, but it helps.

Easy to apply across presets when using a Global Cab block on the Axe-Fx.

I’ve settled on 150 Hz / 5.5 kHz @ 12 dB.

Alt. use the Global EQ, although that allows less fine tuning.

Thanks for chiming in Yek! So you just knock those 2 frequency ranges down? I thought typically you needed a mid range boost as well. When I first cranked this patch up it sounded very scooped.

Any idea on where to look to solve issue #2?
 
Low/Hi Cut in the Cab block are blocking EQs. 12 dB means a sharp roll-off.

To boost the mids the GEQ is handy, at the end of the signal chain. Select 5-band Passive and increase the middle band.
 
I am completely aware of how the Fletcher Munsen curve augments highs/lows and drops out mids at high volumes but I never seem to really be able to counteract it very well. So my question is ....
It sounds like you are NOT "completely aware", or else your choice of words is not great. Fletcher Munson doesn't "drop" anything or augment anything. It simply explains the effect your ears provide when listening to sounds at different volumes.

Our ears hear midrange much better than highs and lows at lower volumes. As such, people tend to dial in more bass and treble when doing so at lower volumes. When those sounds are played louder our ears hear the highs and lows much better and so now they have too much bass and treble.

There is a thread somewhere here with a cool trick: stick a PEQ in your chain near the end. Dial it for a mid bump of about 4dB. Assign the bypass to an unused external controller. Do this in all your gigging presets (a global block is nice). Then, use the "initial value" control in the global menu to quickly turn this on or off in all presets by using 0% or 100%.

I'll see if I can find the thread...

Edit:

Here is the boost thread:

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/frfr-tip-give-yourself-a-midrange-boost.57223/
 
Oh, to answer your second question, I wish I knew! I think it's just an auditory effect of low volume. However, you might want to explore a compressor at the front of your chain - the Optical seems to impart a bit of that. Additionally, Preamp Sag (to me) is what I associate with "spongy".
 
It sounds like you are NOT "completely aware", or else your choice of words is not great. Fletcher Munson doesn't "drop" anything or augment anything. It simply explains the effect your ears provide when listening to sounds at different volumes.

Our ears hear midrange much better than highs and lows at lower volumes. As such, people tend to dial in more bass and treble when doing so at lower volumes. When those sounds are played louder our ears hear the highs and lows much better and so now they have too much bass and treble.

There is a thread somewhere here with a cool trick: stick a PEQ in your chain near the end. Dial it for a mid bump of about 4dB. Assign the bypass to an unused external controller. Do this in all your gigging presets (a global block is nice). Then, use the "initial value" control in the global menu to quickly turn this on or off in all presets by using 0% or 100%.

I'll see if I can find the thread...

Edit:

Here is the boost thread:

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/frfr-tip-give-yourself-a-midrange-boost.57223/

Cool, thanks for that. That will definitely be helpful as I've got to create 4 different versions of yhis thing for live and most likely that midrange will be different with all 4. And yes, I know that FM doesn't actually change anything it's simply an effect of perception at different volumes. Still what causes it isn't as important here as figuring out the most effective way to compensate for it. The real fun is doing it in the minimal little window before your ears start to fatigue and you aren't hearing things quite... clearly anymore.
 
As an audiologist as well as musician, I see lots of guys trying to compensate for some degree of hearing loss by dialing in way too much highs and such. Because they aren’t hearing accurately, they think they need to dial more treble that someone with normal hearing would feel Necessary.

Point being, make sure you have an accurate basis for making these tonal tweaks, both in terms of playback system as well as your auditory system.
I was told that you can tell if a sound engineer had hearing damage if he dials too much highs in a mix.
 
I would think that setting a global EQ for lowering the highs(somewhat) and lows (more) would be a better choice than the mid boost in the linked-to thread above - because I am under the impression that boosting with an EQ is not as "transparent" on the non-EQ'd home-volume-level preset as setting one to make some cuts. At least that's why I tend to like EQ cuts rather than EQ bumps for myself.

In theory.... At least my theory before I hook up all the electronics, capacitors, flux valves...
 
I checked my M-F switch (I hadn't checked it in years) and I also had a mild mid boost at 1750 Hz with a broad Q.

I only use the M-F switch during loudness wars, never at home. I work on getting the preset sounding right before hand.

But sometimes when you really have it cranked up the M-F switch comes in handy.
 
I'm probably doing it all wrong, but I use the 3-band GEQ in the amp block to boost the mids somewhere around 2-5 dB, depending on what sounds good with that particular preset. Occasionally, I'll also adjust the lows and highs up or down a bit to taste. I could surely fine-tune things even better, but I find that a simple mid boost helps my guitar hold its own nicely in the mix at gig volumes. Some time back I recall seeing another post here where someone commented on how "musical" the 3-band GEQ is, and I tend to agree.
 
Keep in mind when looking at the minimum human audibility curve, aka the inverse of the FM effect, that the lack of audibility in the low and high frequencies are largely outside the typical range of guitar frequencies. For example, perhaps one can hear 1kHz at 5 dB, and 20 Hz needs to be say 60 dB, which is a massive difference, but look at 100 Hz, which is more like 20 dB (arbitrary numbers), much less difference. Assuming your using some high and low pass on your patches, say 100 Hz and 6000 Hz, to better emulate the typical guitar cab/speaker, you are largely avoiding the extreme high and low frequencies which have the greatest FM effect. As a result, you can dial in pretty well at a modest home volume level and have it transfer pretty darn well with higher intensity levels.

If your making dubstep or something with crazy low end, then yeah, your 20 Hz "wobbly" speaking cone blowing bassline is going to sound vastly different if your mixing it at 1am at whisper level, vs at 100 dB, but guitar...not so much to be overly concerned with.

In all honesty the variations in room acoustics, the PA system, effect of lots of sound absorbing bodies in the crowd vs empty venue for sound check can make your patches sound more different than FM will
 
When I dial in my presets, I get them to sound as I want. Then when Mrs. Geeze goes shopping, I crank my studio amp and tweak the presets based on the gig volume. What gets tweaked really depends on the amp and cab I use for the preset. I find that I don't have to do a lot of tweaking, but that's just me. My answer is probably not very helpful, so I apologize. Just crank whatever you are playing through to gig volume. But do be careful as loud volume for a sustained time can damage your hearing. Hearing damage cannot be reversed.

What he said!....What'd he say?
 
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