Controlled Feedback Issues & other woes

[rickgk]

Hi,

I really hope you guys can help me with some issues i have been struggling with, please don't take my experiences below as knocking the axe-fx i am not trying to start any controversy i really just need advice and desperately need help because i really want to make this work and it's starting to get me bummed out, here goes.

I have been struggling for the last 18 months since purchasing the ultra to get a natural feedback from my FRFR solutions (ESI Near08 studio monitors & Wharfedale Pro Titan 12).
After 6 months of trial & error to make it work i conceded that it must just not be possible to get amp like natural feedback from my setup and have been 'living' with not being able to get everything i enjoy from a tube amp out of the axefx, but after seeing the samhill atomic fr vid and this recent vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80LYymbrxUA i know I must be wrong and have become more determined to make this work. FYI The video link above would be EXACTLY what i am hoping to get from my axe-fx, the smooth controlled feedback, and the harmonic note bloom when he pulls up on the trem arm near the end is just perfect, exactly what i am looking for, it doesn't even seem that he is turned up very loud as you can hear his pickup selector flicking back and forth through the camera's speaker

So for the past week i have been working really hard on my presets, others presets, & the inbuilt presets to get this controlled feedback, I've tried the phase reversal trick (only through the wharfedale as i am using spdif into mbox then through the ESI's), i've cranked the hell out of both the studio monitors & wharfedale, more gain, less gain, no noise gate, all the amp models etc etc fyi i generally turn the bass down to 9-10oclock on my patches and crank the mids and highs a bit.
It seems on my FR's that the note gets to that point where it would normally bloom into nice natural feedback sustain but instead hollows out, gets kind of woofy in the lows, and then dies out, if i play an open e or a5 chord and let it ring out and tap on the trem to coax out the feedback the notes instantly hollow out & woof as soon as i tap the arm, it's almost like there is some limiting or feedback supression kicking in on the speaker, i cannot find anything on my studio monitors or wharfedale FR that suggests this might be happening, but that doesn't mean it isn't i guess.

Another thing i have noticed ever since i got my unit is that it seems to be alot noisier than other high gain vid's and clips i have heard from other axe users and i generally have to crank the gate quite high which then kills the attempts at feedback even more, the hiss and background noise seems to overpower the sustaining notes at times too. As soon as i turn the volume knob up on my guitar on comes the noise, even with the dual recto head i used to own cranked at gigs with no gate never did i have to ride my volume knob as much as i do with the axe.

Also If i turn the input knob at all on any patch there is a static hiss that lasts a couple of seconds before dissapearing, anyone else experience this?

Finally (sorry about the long post) i was working on this feverishly tonight going spdif out into my mbox and then to my ESI's cranked really loud and all of a sudden out of nowhere white noise blasts through my speakers full blast, i turned the axefx straight off, unplugged from the ESI's then plugged into the wharfedale via balanced cable and now all the patches have an odd sounding but very subtle modulation kind of effect going on.

I wonder if there is something wrong with my ultra (even before this spdif issue tonight with the noise & no feedback sustain doldrums), is there any sort of diagnostic programme i can run through the unit to make sure that everything is up to spec? or will I have to send it away to be checked (I hope not as i live in tasmania the island state at the bottom of australia so that would take ages)

I am working on getting a video camera so that i can make some video of these issues which will hopefully make troubleshooting a little easier.

So I know there are alot of issues i am listing above and i feel a bit overwhelmed at the moment as nothing seems to be working for me, but please don't take what i have written as axe bashing, as i still think it's an incredible unit, and there is plenty of proof positive out there that i should be able to get what i want from the axe, alas i am not but i am hoping you guys can put me on the path to tonal glory.

Cheers

 

[Scott Peterson]

Ok, we need to break this down first.

A) What version firmware is your Axe-FX?
B) What guitar are you using?
C) What is your input trim on the front of the Axe-FX set at? Do the red lights blink at hard transients?
D) Breakdown your entire rig setup in simple terms.
E) How loud are you playing?
F) What are your presets/amp blocks you are using look like? What is your output levels internally with your patches looking like? (ie. Gainstaging)

There are a lot of factors to consider here, because there are a lot of variables. A 'step-by-step' approach can get this figured out for you.

I can assure you that controlled musical feedback is both possible, controllable and pleasing using different FRFR solutions. But there are many things to consider past what you've noted (or not told us) to take into consideration.

 

[UnsungHeroGuitars]

Humm... listen to Scott for the tecchy stuff, but just to say that despite being a newbie, I've found getting feedback very easy just sat at my desk with a pair of Alesis Monitors at very moderate volume

I do have active EMG's, so I don't know if they're lending a helping hand here

 

[rickgk]

Thanks for the reply scott, i'll give you as much info as i can, i am at work right now so going by memory.

I updated to 10.1 as soon as it was released before that i pretty much always updated straight away.

Guitar is a Parker Fly Mojo Flame

I've messed with all sorts of settings on the front input, generally it was around 2 oclock without any red light, but this week i tried lowering it to 12o'clock to see if that would lower the noise floor.

Two setups are, parker, planet waves lead or eurocable pro leads, into front input of axe-fx, from spdif out of axe into mbox2 feeding two ESI Near08 studio monitors.
2nd setup same guitar & leads into axe, then balanced out 1 into Wharfedale Pro Titan 12 powered monitor.

Generally i would like to be able to talk over the sounds and achieve feedback but i have tried all volumes, last night for instance i would have been at rock band gigging levels easily.

As far as patch structure i feel i have tried everything, my own patches, pretty much all the patches on axechange etc, last night i went right back to basics and picked the studio lead patch 001 and tried selecting different amps, bypassing all fx just using amp and cab blocks, adding delay etc, different cabs, i usually end up with a stereo cab combo of either german and oval but i thought the german might be too bassy and cause issues, so have switched to the 4x12 25 with either the oval or 1x10gold, but still not there.

Something i think i mentioned in my original post, if i turn the input knob of the axe at all (with or without a guitar plugged in) i get a static hiss that fades out after 3 or so seconds, i don't know if that has anything to do with any of my issues but i'm wondering if my unit has a noise issue that might be limiting my ability to achieve what i am after.

I really need to get some video to show you guys.

Once again thanks for your help, i really want to work through this.

Ok, we need to break this down first.

A) What version firmware is your Axe-FX?
B) What guitar are you using?
C) What is your input trim on the front of the Axe-FX set at? Do the red lights blink at hard transients?
D) Breakdown your entire rig setup in simple terms.
E) How loud are you playing?
F) What are your presets/amp blocks you are using look like? What is your output levels internally with your patches looking like? (ie. Gainstaging)

There are a lot of factors to consider here, because there are a lot of variables. A 'step-by-step' approach can get this figured out for you.

I can assure you that controlled musical feedback is both possible, controllable and pleasing using different FRFR solutions. But there are many things to consider past what you've noted (or not told us) to take into consideration.

 

[javajunkie]

When you say you've tried no noise gate, you mean you've turned the gate in the layout menu's threshold all the way down right? I ask because you mention that input hiss dies down after a couple of seconds. Only the noise gate would do that.

You should be tickling the red on the input for the best S/N ratio. A little red in the input signal is not bad.

 

[mesaboog]

There are a couple things that I would try if I were you. I may be way off base here, not as techie as some here, but have been through my share of trial and error with modelers, DAW and FRFR.

When you say you are running spdif, that is a red flag to make sure the sample rate is set correctly on your interface and/or software and that you are using the right kind of cable.

Also, I would try the unbalanced out 1 into the Wharfdale if you have not yet tried that. At volume with moderate gain, I would think you would be able to get loads of beautiful feedback if there is not an interface, spdif or cabling issue somewhere in your chain.

 

[rickgk]

Yep threshold all the way down, obviously the noise on higher gain patches is then really quite bad, to a point where the background hiss overpowers a sustaining note long before it would normally go into any sort of controlled feedback.

The input knob issue is strange this hiss occurs with the gate on or off, it sounds like a scratchy guitar pot when turning the knob then hisses for several seconds after releasing the knob regardless of gate setting.

One red light would very occassionally light when i had the input at 2pm but rarely, not at all with input at 12oclock.

Another thing i have noted, 90% of patches i download from other users will cause output clipping as do half the preset patches, so i have to lower the output within the amp or output block, i have checked global settings and everything is at default.

Thanks for the reply.

When you say you've tried no noise gate, you mean you've turned the gate in the layout menu's threshold all the way down right? I ask because you mention that input hiss dies down after a couple of seconds. Only the noise gate would do that.

You should be tickling the red on the input for the best S/N ratio. A little red in the input signal is not bad.

 

[rickgk]

Hi

Sorry Spdif is only going to the studio monitors for recording. Sample rate is ok, i have to change it in reaper to match the axe.

The wharfedale gets it's input from balanced out 1 on the axe.

Cheers

There are a couple things that I would try if I were you. I may be way off base here, not as techie as some here, but have been through my share of trial and error with modelers, DAW and FRFR.

When you say you are running spdif, that is a red flag to make sure the sample rate is set correctly on your interface and/or software and that you are using the right kind of cable.

Also, I would try the unbalanced out 1 into the Wharfdale if you have not yet tried that. At volume with moderate gain, I would think you would be able to get loads of beautiful feedback if there is not an interface, spdif or cabling issue somewhere in your chain.

 

[javajunkie]

Yep threshold all the way down, obviously the noise on higher gain patches is then really quite bad, to a point where the background hiss overpowers a sustaining note long before it would normally go into any sort of controlled feedback.

The input knob issue is strange this hiss occurs with the gate on or off, it sounds like a scratchy guitar pot when turning the knob then hisses for several seconds after releasing the knob regardless of gate setting.

One red light would very occassionally light when i had the input at 2pm but rarely, not at all with input at 12oclock.

Another thing i have noted, 90% of patches i download from other users will cause output clipping as do half the preset patches, so i have to lower the output within the amp or output block, i have checked global settings and everything is at default.

Thanks for the reply.

When you say you've tried no noise gate, you mean you've turned the gate in the layout menu's threshold all the way down right? I ask because you mention that input hiss dies down after a couple of seconds. Only the noise gate would do that.

You should be tickling the red on the input for the best S/N ratio. A little red in the input signal is not bad.

When you say you've tried no noise gate, you mean you've turned the gate in the layout menu's threshold all the way down right? I ask because you mention that input hiss dies down after a couple of seconds. Only the noise gate would do that.

You should be tickling the red on the input for the best S/N ratio. A little red in the input signal is not bad.

Crackling and noise when moving the input knob is normal. It is not intended to be moved while playing. I wish I could help more. I had some problems with feedback on my DAW early on, but the feedback reverse fixed that. With may new DAW, I don't even have to do that. If the patches were downloaded from old firmware, it is understandable that many would clip.

 

[rickgk]

No worries thanks for trying, just to clarify you say that 'feedback reversal' fixed your issue, do you mean 'phase reversal' on the outputs? Just double checking there is not another fix that i don't know about.

Yep threshold all the way down, obviously the noise on higher gain patches is then really quite bad, to a point where the background hiss overpowers a sustaining note long before it would normally go into any sort of controlled feedback.

The input knob issue is strange this hiss occurs with the gate on or off, it sounds like a scratchy guitar pot when turning the knob then hisses for several seconds after releasing the knob regardless of gate setting.

One red light would very occassionally light when i had the input at 2pm but rarely, not at all with input at 12oclock.

Another thing i have noted, 90% of patches i download from other users will cause output clipping as do half the preset patches, so i have to lower the output within the amp or output block, i have checked global settings and everything is at default.

Thanks for the reply.

When you say you've tried no noise gate, you mean you've turned the gate in the layout menu's threshold all the way down right? I ask because you mention that input hiss dies down after a couple of seconds. Only the noise gate would do that.

You should be tickling the red on the input for the best S/N ratio. A little red in the input signal is not bad.

When you say you've tried no noise gate, you mean you've turned the gate in the layout menu's threshold all the way down right? I ask because you mention that input hiss dies down after a couple of seconds. Only the noise gate would do that.

You should be tickling the red on the input for the best S/N ratio. A little red in the input signal is not bad.

Crackling and noise when moving the input knob is normal. It is not intended to be moved while playing. I wish I could help more. I had some problems with feedback on my DAW early on, but the feedback reverse fixed that. With may new DAW, I don't even have to do that. If the patches were downloaded from old firmware, it is understandable that many would clip.

 

[javajunkie]

yes, phase reversal. That is what I meant.

 

[rickgk]

No problem i thought so, thanks so much for the prompt responses.

yes, phase reversal. That is what I meant.

 

[sprint]

Hi:

Input knob scratchyness normal here too, with fading noise for 3 secs due to noise gate.

I was experimenting today as I've had similar challenges to you.

For me what works for feedback is:

- Add volume for easier feedback. More for my 8" studio monitors than my 8" cabs.
- Reduce the noise gate although not totally required if the environment is right.
- My position in relation to the monitors cabs makes a difference - there's some sweet spot of guitar in relation to speakers.
- EQ - boosting certain frequencies help.
- technique - holding the note / chord carefully while / after note(s) bloom(s).
- Output Phase Invert - Helps a bit.
- Stereo or Chorus can get in the way or help depending on settings (I have not figured out what /why).
- Different Pickups feedback differently (I'd love to try the blackouts for feeding back).

My guitar is noisy on high gain as well which I have not been able to fix. I plan to try Mark Day's trick of glueing the pickups in place to help with noise.

I've never owned a half decent tube amp so I'm still curious about this quiet environment with effortless feedback that people talk about.

 

[rickgk]

Thanks that's good news about the input knob scratchiness, i was starting to over analyse that and thought it might be responsible for my other issues.

Yep have definitely given the volume factor a thorough going over

Yep have reduced noise gate, but no good.

Position is something that is a factor with real amps as well, you have to try and find the sweet spot, believe me i've gone so far as putting the guitar on the speaker grill, then i get squealing uncontrollable feedback.

I've tried running the mids and highs higher and the bass very low on the sims as this is something that aids feedback in real amps, but unfortunately not helping here.

Pretty sure i've got the technique down, i've been playing the live covers scene for many many years.

Tried disabling all fx and just having straight amp & cab patches, still no go.

I will have to try another guitar as i only have the Fly Mojo at the moment, i even went so far as to have the pickups re-potted/waxed to make sure it wasn't a pickup issue, pickups are JB in bridge & jazz in neck.

Hi:

Input knob scratchyness normal here too, with fading noise for 3 secs due to noise gate.

I was experimenting today as I've had similar challenges to you.

For me what works for feedback is:

- Add volume for easier feedback. More for my 8" studio monitors than my 8" cabs.
- Reduce the noise gate although not totally required if the environment is right.
- My position in relation to the monitors cabs makes a difference - there's some sweet spot of guitar in relation to speakers.
- EQ - boosting certain frequencies help.
- technique - holding the note / chord carefully while / after note(s) bloom(s).
- Output Phase Invert - Helps a bit.
- Stereo or Chorus can get in the way or help depending on settings (I have not figured out what /why).
- Different Pickups feedback differently (I'd love to try the blackouts for feeding back).

My guitar is noisy on high gain as well which I have not been able to fix. I plan to try Mark Day's trick of glueing the pickups in place to help with noise.

I've never owned a half decent tube amp so I'm still curious about this quiet environment with effortless feedback that people talk about.

 

[chase]

I've messed with all sorts of settings on the front input, generally it was around 2 oclock without any red light, but this week i tried lowering it to 12o'clock to see if that would lower the noise floor.

There may be more to your difficulty, but I'd start here: turn the input knob up until you're getting red flashes when you hit the strings hard, as Java suggested. Your input level is already a bit lower than it should be, so turning it down will make it even harder to get feedback.

 

[rickgk]

No worries i'll give that a try tonight, the problem there is when i do that I have to turn the gate up so much to compensate for the noise that it really chokes the tone, that's why i thought i'd try lower input setting, it didn't really help much anyway so will indeed turn it back up and see how i go.

Thanks for your reply.

[quote="rickgk"I've messed with all sorts of settings on the front input, generally it was around 2 oclock without any red light, but this week i tried lowering it to 12o'clock to see if that would lower the noise floor.

There may be more to your difficulty, but I'd start here: turn the input knob up until you're getting red flashes when you hit the strings hard, as Java suggested. Your input level is already a bit lower than it should be, so turning it down will make it even harder to get feedback.[/quote]

 

[chase]

If you're having that much trouble with noise using humbuckers it sounds like you may have other problems in your setup. Bad wiring in your house? Lots of RF interference?

 

[rickgk]

Anything is possible i guess so i will investigate (i am using really good powerboard that cost me $150 to power the axe but i'll look into a power conditioner even a ups type device would do i guess??)
but that doesn't explain why i don't have the same trouble with real amps? I could max the gain out on my jvm410 on od2 red channel, crank the master up to gigging volumes and with the gate of my nova system in the loop i could sit in front of the amp with the guitar volume wide open and not get any noise, and still sustain notes and let them decay to almost nothing before the gate cut them off. I'm stumped.

If you're having that much trouble with noise using humbuckers it sounds like you may have other problems in your setup. Bad wiring in your house? Lots of RF interference?

 

[Dinkledorf]

Did you get rid of the modulation you noted in your original note?

As for the feedback, I did a "gig" of sorts last Thursday, just played a few tunes against back tracks going straight to FOH during a company social event. I actually think it sounded not that great but understandable given I never played with anything but headphones on the Axe to date and got all of 5 minutes to try and find a good tone. Regardless, I got feedback exactly where I wanted on one tune, that last note of the intro to Crying by Satriani. It was definitely unexpected but also definitely there and spot on. Played it on a Suhr which has quite the powerhouse humbucker on it. The patch I used has the noise gate set at -80dB with Ratio of 2.63 which is practically disabled but did not produce enough noise to be noticeable.

The PA was your typical bargain brand variety and the monitor was a stereo keyboard amp wedge.

I am not familiar with your gear but is it possible your FR rig is not pushing enough air? I am by no means an expert here especially given I have played mainly with headphones for so long but I do believe you need a good dose of air movement to get that nice feedback happening. I don't mean volume either. Try a blocking PEQ set to about 120-170hz on the low and 6-7kHz or so on the high. This should allow you to turn up a bit louder coming out of the Axe without clipping.

Just to eliminate it as a factor, try it running mono and do not reverse phase on the delay if you are using one, or duck it to keep it out of the way. Not sure that could be a factor but to keep the signal clean and true, might be worth a try.

Good luck!

 

[rickgk]

I don't know if the modulation has gone yet, as i sent my original post last night straight after i gave up trying to figure out where the modulation is coming from, i sure hope i have not done any damage to the axe, although i don't see how i possibly could as i was only using spdif out of the axe at the time so no signal going back in, i am hoping it will be gone by some miracle when i get home tonight.

Thanks so much for the advice i will give it all a try tonight.

I could never get away with the gate down that low on my patches with any sort of high gain.

I have tinkered with peq's in this quest and feel that they get what feels closer to the goal but just short again.

I know what you mean about pushing air, all the patches of mine and others that i have tried do seem to lack a bit of that bottom end punch that i am used to from real amps but i have no idea how to replicate this on my fr solutions, did you check out the clip i linked in the original post? that guy doesn't even seem to have his monitors turned up very loud but he is getting exactly everything i want to get from my axe, i will try to contact him and see what guitars pickups and other signal chain he is using, maybe that will help.

I am quite willing to try anyone's patches that they know gets the type of result i am after and see if we can troubleshoot from there, obviously i know there is alot more variables to consider but i'll try anything I'm desperate

Did you get rid of the modulation you noted in your original note?

As for the feedback, I did a "gig" of sorts last Thursday, just played a few tunes against back tracks going straight to FOH during a company social event. I actually think it sounded not that great but understandable given I never played with anything but headphones on the Axe to date and got all of 5 minutes to try and find a good tone. Regardless, I got feedback exactly where I wanted on one tune, that last note of the intro to Crying by Satriani. It was definitely unexpected but also definitely there and spot on. Played it on a Suhr which has quite the powerhouse humbucker on it. The patch I used has the noise gate set at -80dB with Ratio of 2.63 which is practically disabled but did not produce enough noise to be noticeable.

The PA was your typical bargain brand variety and the monitor was a stereo keyboard amp wedge.

I am not familiar with your gear but is it possible your FR rig is not pushing enough air? I am by no means an expert here especially given I have played mainly with headphones for so long but I do believe you need a good dose of air movement to get that nice feedback happening. I don't mean volume either. Try a blocking PEQ set to about 120-170hz on the low and 6-7kHz or so on the high. This should allow you to turn up a bit louder coming out of the Axe without clipping.

Just to eliminate it as a factor, try it running mono and do not reverse phase on the delay if you are using one, or duck it to keep it out of the way. Not sure that could be a factor but to keep the signal clean and true, might be worth a try.

Good luck!