Considering a CLR after reading this glowing detailed review

Cabs definitely are a different experience, and that's why I still have two Mesa cabs in my rehearsal space.

I'm curious to hear if you've had success with any other frfr systems, in getting them to sound like a cab?
That's not a sarcastic question.....just curious to hear of other frfr solutions that folks have had success with.


No. I haven't. I don't think you can. For some that is acceptable for various reasons.

To everyone else besides BBN, I've seen these rebuttals before and they don't go anywhere. If any of you payed attention to what I wrote, you would have noticed my mention that for some people the solution makes sense. Live playing situations for instance.

If your after tone though, I will happily argue that FRFR doesn't get there. I was hoping to use FRFR to make more use of IR's, To be closer related to the sound I'm recording through the Axe when playing live.

Guitar cabs have all those flaws, like lack of high frequency dispersion right? Their so heavy. You gotta make concessions to get what you want. Gotta give something to get something. Well, that doesn't cut it for me.

I recently met a brilliant electrical engineer who wanted to check out my Axe rig. I thought I'd blow him away with my setup cause Its just the best! Well, I didn't. Instead, his amps blew me away. Some he made himself. He is one of the founders of the UAD platform. Very well versed in DSP engineering. In my own quest to believe, I had sold all of my tube amps and been away from them for several months. I had forgotten what I had lost until my ears heard it again.

I didn't let this happen with FRFR, but I did with tubes.

Mind you I still love my Axe, but there it is. Every time I try to replace the original sin entirely, I eventually come back to it. I'm not the only one.

I admit that I'm jaded on FRFR. Lots of time money and energy spent with little to show for it. I'm just glad I had my guitar cabinet to keep me from losing that perspective as well.

Looking forward to seeing Fryettes new LXII tube power amp for modelers. I just emailed them and they are planning a press release in the next couple of weeks with units shipping in the fall.
 
See that's my problem. You say if you're after tone, the frfr doesn't get there. Duh!!! That's not the goal of a FRFR system. When you go FRFR, your tone comes from the Axe FX ONLY!

That's the point. So when I record direct with Usb or send direct to FOH with xlr from the axe, it will sound the same. No need to mic a cab.

The FRFR is only there to tell you the truth. However your preset sounds. You can't say FRFR is not for tone seekers, because they don't affect the tone!!!

If it sounds bad, well your preset sounds bad as is. In your case, if your preset sounds bad through FRFR but sounds good through your cab, it will sound bad if you use your direct outs to FOH.

Clear and simple.

It's like saying my axe sounds much better through a cab than headphones. Well it's two different purpose.
 
No. I haven't. I don't think you can. For some that is acceptable for various reasons.

To everyone else besides BBN, I've seen these rebuttals before and they don't go anywhere. If any of you payed attention to what I wrote, you would have noticed my mention that for some people the solution makes sense. Live playing situations for instance.

If your after tone though, I will happily argue that FRFR doesn't get there. I was hoping to use FRFR to make more use of IR's, To be closer related to the sound I'm recording through the Axe when playing live.

Guitar cabs have all those flaws, like lack of high frequency dispersion right? Their so heavy. You gotta make concessions to get what you want. Gotta give something to get something. Well, that doesn't cut it for me.

I recently met a brilliant electrical engineer who wanted to check out my Axe rig. I thought I'd blow him away with my setup cause Its just the best! Well, I didn't. Instead, his amps blew me away. Some he made himself. He is one of the founders of the UAD platform. Very well versed in DSP engineering. In my own quest to believe, I had sold all of my tube amps and been away from them for several months. I had forgotten what I had lost until my ears heard it again.

I didn't let this happen with FRFR, but I did with tubes.

Mind you I still love my Axe, but there it is. Every time I try to replace the original sin entirely, I eventually come back to it. I'm not the only one.

I admit that I'm jaded on FRFR. Lots of time money and energy spent with little to show for it. I'm just glad I had my guitar cabinet to keep me from losing that perspective as well.

Looking forward to seeing Fryettes new LXII tube power amp for modelers. I just emailed them and they are planning a press release in the next couple of weeks with units shipping in the fall.

I understand what you're saying, and I agree that there is certainly a difference when using Cabs and/or Tube Power amps.
My Marshall 100/100 and Mesa Cabs have a tone that cannot be replicated by FRFR. No argument there.

But I think we've got two topics here:
1) Cabs/Amps vs. FRFR
2) CLR vs. other FRFR systems

I think the folks that drank the CLR koolaid, would say that the CLR is the best FRFR they've found (in the price range).
It doesn't seem like you are debating that point, it sounds like you are debating that FRFR does not compare to a real Cab.

Just saying, if you don't like FRFR, then the CLR would obviously not work for you....but that doesn't mean that others (who like FRFR) are wrong in saying the CLR is the best solution they've found.
 
I understand what you're saying, and I agree that there is certainly a difference when using Cabs and/or Tube Power amps.
My Marshall 100/100 and Mesa Cabs have a tone that cannot be replicated by FRFR. No argument there.

But I think we've got two topics here:
1) Cabs/Amps vs. FRFR
2) CLR vs. other FRFR systems

I think the folks that drank the CLR koolaid, would say that the CLR is the best FRFR they've found (in the price range).
It doesn't seem like you are debating that point, it sounds like you are debating that FRFR does not compare to a real Cab.

Just saying, if you don't like FRFR, then the CLR would obviously not work for you....but that doesn't mean that others (who like FRFR) are wrong in saying the CLR is the best solution they've found.

The problem here is you can't compare amp/cab vs FRFR as it's teo different things. When you do this comparison, what you're actually comparing is amp/cab vs the Axe-Fx and Cab IRs. Not the FRFR.
 
I'm gonna weigh in here for a sec just cause.

I heard mention in this thread of these speakers being the greatest and how everybody loves them. No one seems to have a bad opinion about them!
Here's why. Anyone who expresses discontent gets quickly attacked and dismissed, or they get into huge verbal arguments with fan boys.

I avoided this until now. But I stop at seeing posts stating how these speakers can do no wrong. Its a shame really.

My experience was simply that I bought these things after drinking the koolaid and hung in there past the return period, thinking I just didn't get it. I did. I just have pickier ears i guess. These are simply overated PA speakers. Do they sound good? Sure, compared to other FRFR stuff maybe.

I had a Mesa 4X12 and Matrix GTX1000 competing with them and they couldn't hold a candle. They sounded either thin or boomey (depending on your settings) but never solid like my 4X12, They also sounded somewhat sterile. No real warmth compared to a real cabinet.

In frustration I contacted Atomic and of course I was outside the return period, so too bad for me. I went through the hassle of reselling them and lost about $500 in the process. No fun.....in fact up yours Atomic!....(sorry couldn't resist)

I'm not going to debate with anyone about this because I spent many hours and days on this, and don't feel need to prove anything to anyone. I read and watched all of the endorsements. I bought into all of it until the bitter end. I was reminded that like any industry, when people stake their lives on something, bias will ensue.

Bottom line is, If you buy them, be sure you like them before 30 days is up. If it matters to you and you have the means, compare them to a guitar rig.
(Axe/power amp/cab or tube amp/cab). I can't imagine I'm the only one who feels this way. I'm sure somebody out there had the same experience.

I understand that different applications suite different people. For instance, gigging musicians may prefer something like this as opposed to other options for live sound. I was using these at home.

Again the only reason for the post is that I'm tired of people pumping these things up to be the best thing ever. In my belief, the bar for quality tone is dropping as a result of this kind of mentality.

Totally agree. I've AB'd my Matrix Q12 powered with Gt1000fx up against an active CLR and preferred the Matrix setup tone, it was just a bit clearer to me. The tone I get out of my two Q12s is killer in my option, and I don't see the CLR besting this tone. Bottom line is that both systems can do the job and one system is not miles better than the other as some would have you believe.
 
I understand what you're saying, and I agree that there is certainly a difference when using Cabs and/or Tube Power amps.
My Marshall 100/100 and Mesa Cabs have a tone that cannot be replicated by FRFR. No argument there.

But I think we've got two topics here:
1) Cabs/Amps vs. FRFR
2) CLR vs. other FRFR systems

I think the folks that drank the CLR koolaid, would say that the CLR is the best FRFR they've found (in the price range).
It doesn't seem like you are debating that point, it sounds like you are debating that FRFR does not compare to a real Cab.

Just saying, if you don't like FRFR, then the CLR would obviously not work for you....but that doesn't mean that others (who like FRFR) are wrong in saying the CLR is the best solution they've found.

I completely agree with you BBN.

Acidfrost, your just annoying. FRFR doesn't lie? Sure! while your at it, plug a tube amp straight into one. Oh it will tell you the truth alright. Tube amps really sound terrible.:mad: What was I thinking??!!:shock

Back to the sane discussion. My frustration is with thinking that other people's satisfaction including endorsers meant I would be happy too. There is overwhelming approval for FRFR. You can't exactly get in front of this stuff to try it. You gotta buy to try. As I've learned from exposure vs the internet, recordings can sound very close if not identical between the two. Not in person.

When I went to the first Axefest I was scratching my head. The only person that sounded really good to me through the QSC PA speakers, was Dweezil Zappa. His sound was awesome. I ended up hovering around the Freidman room and eventually buying one. Not very practical however.

Then there's the FRFR isn't supposed to sound the same argument. Its a true image which reveals all, like acidfrost here pointed out. Not sure I ever felt that guitar cabs needed fixing or improving in terms of tone. Were they lying to me? Ohh, I'm sad.

I would think if FRFR could sound just like a cab, it would. Why wouldn't it? I don't think less is more in this case. That is my biggest frustration. Never mind tone! These sound so good, you won't care anymore! And with all the benefits!.... well, you know the rest.

Thanks for the discussion BBN. very therapeutic.:eagerness:

I feel very differently from the popular view. I got triggered by someone writing that they couldn't find any negative feedback and CLR yeah!! That part just pisses me off. FRFR is what it is. that I can accept. Clearly at this point, its not for me.

I still use IR's for recording and find the results satisfying. In that realm, the two become much more closely related. Good recording technique is an art, which I don't have the time or money to really master. FRFR via studio monitors is a reasonable solution in my case.
 
Acidfrost, your just annoying. FRFR doesn't lie? Sure! while your at it, plug a tube amp straight into one. Oh it will tell you the truth alright. Tube amps really sound terrible.:mad: What was I thinking??!!:shock

I don't know if you're acting stupid or just trolling. This makes no sense.

A tube amp in a FRFR will sound like crap because a FRFR is not a cab.

A tube amp in a cab will sound as good as the cab.

A tube amp in a cab IR in a FRFR will sound as good as the IR.

An amp sim in a cab will sound as good as the cab.

An amp sim in a cab IR in a FRFR will sound as good as the IR.


You're comparing a cab with a FRFR setup. You can't.

Your cab can only be compared to an IR, not the system you're listening from (monitors, headphones, car stereo, FRFR system, etc.)

It's like comparing a car and a bicycle.
They both bring you from point A to B but the car will need gas (your cab IR) where the bicycle doesn't. Good comparaison ... Not.
 
I'm actually having a good exchange with BBN. Not so much with you.

In fact, I don't think I like you sooooo....that's why I'm being obnoxious towards you. you do not understand my point and your not gonna, cause Your a tool?...I don't know.

Don't really care now that I think about it. BBN helped me back to my happy place. Your just lame.

I don't normally act this childish. Call it a guilty pleasure.:lol

I'll let you have the last word. won't reply to you again. Just go play with your CLR cause you got it all figured out.
 
I'm actually having a good exchange with BBN. Not so much with you.

In fact, I don't think I like you sooooo....that's why I'm being obnoxious towards you. you do not understand my point and your not gonna, cause Your a tool?...I don't know.

Don't really care now that I think about it. BBN helped me back to my happy place. Your just lame.

I don't normally act this childish. Call it a guilty pleasure.:lol

I'll let you have the last word. won't reply to you again. Just go play with your CLR cause you got it all figured out.

Wow it's like talking to a wall.

You can have your opinion, but don't misguide people regarding something YOU don't understand. I'm opened to hearing valid arguments, but all you're saying is mumbo jumbo. Bring it somewhere else. Stop misguiding people.

And seriously, you're, not your.
 
I love my CLR. The only thing I don't like is that the Neo version isn't available in Europe. Other than that, it's a perfect matchup!

:( What's the reason behind this? I thought about upgrading to a CLR but I'd want to have the neo version.
 
It's not (yet) available from the European AA's facility (Ireland, IIRC). You could always manage your order to the USA, but it would cost you a lot in delivery and duties.
Let's wait... :)
 
It's not (yet) available from the European AA's facility (Ireland, IIRC). You could always manage your order to the USA, but it would cost you a lot in delivery and duties.
Let's wait... :)

Thanks for the info :)
Yup, I'm not in a hurry, I can wait.
 
I understand what you're saying, and I agree that there is certainly a difference when using Cabs and/or Tube Power amps.
My Marshall 100/100 and Mesa Cabs have a tone that cannot be replicated by FRFR. No argument there.

But I think we've got two topics here:
1) Cabs/Amps vs. FRFR
2) CLR vs. other FRFR systems

I think the folks that drank the CLR koolaid, would say that the CLR is the best FRFR they've found (in the price range).
It doesn't seem like you are debating that point, it sounds like you are debating that FRFR does not compare to a real Cab.

Just saying, if you don't like FRFR, then the CLR would obviously not work for you....but that doesn't mean that others (who like FRFR) are wrong in saying the CLR is the best solution they've found.

Agreed. There are two separate discussion that weren't clarified before the nastiness started.

However, just to throw a spanner in the works, I would love to know what kind of influence that the knowledge of having a guitar cab exerts. What I mean is that the knowledge of whether you are hearing a cab rather than an FRFR setup influences people's decisions and perspectives, whether they know it or not. A good old double blind test would settle the debate between FRFR and a cab, and a static listening position (which is what would be needed for a TRUE tone test).
 
Yup! That's what I'm hoping. I bough 2 to mount in a stack formation when I'm feeling grumpy and loud, and also to double as extra studio monitors. A guitar cab wont do both, so these seem to be getting the best of the FRFR reviews.

I'd not advise you to stack them. The sound would change dramatically, since there would be strong reciprocal interferences.
But the most meaningful question is whether you'd address the room or would just use them as a monitor. The answer will suggest the best option.

:)
 
I'd not advise you to stack them. The sound would change dramatically, since there would be strong reciprocal interferences.
But the most meaningful question is whether you'd address the room or would just use them as a monitor. The answer will suggest the best option.

:)

From a purely selfish POV, I will most probably end up using them as part of a W/D/W rig. The 'stack' thing is purely ego, TBH. ;) I'm thinking a CLR centre, then L and R of my playing position with my current EV on one side and the other CLR on the other, all directly facing me from the floor. Then I can bask in the glory of my own sonic ejaculation and not worry about the PA! ;) :D :D
 
you do not understand my point and your not gonna, cause Your a tool?...I don't know. Just go play with your CLR cause you got it all figured out.

If I may, I'd like to say that, IMO, the harshness arose from your first post:

No one seems to have a bad opinion about them! Here's why. Anyone who expresses discontent gets quickly attacked and dismissed, or they get into huge verbal arguments with fan boys.
I avoided this until now. But I stop at seeing posts stating how these speakers can do no wrong. Its a shame really.

IOW, you stated that people are scared to express bad opinions about the product. This is possibly true (I mean, that some people respond to this description). I also understand your frustration for a bad purchase. But, beyond your words, you seem to imply that there can't be a happy CLR user unless they don't have a clue about good tone, which is clearly bs.

Here follow some things I believe, listed in no special order:

you seem to imply that a good tone is a tone you like. But the truth is, that everyone is after a tone they have in their mind; I have also heard people with a great tone put out of any piece of wood with some strings on it;

when you write about people stating that "CLRs can do no wrong", you seem to imply that they're saying that they will sound great no matter what they feed them with, which is manifestly a distortion of reality.
OTOH, I feel confident when I state that what they mean is that a CLR can output exactly what you feed it with ("no wrong" = "truthful");

you said Zappa sounded great through PA. So you're saying that a good tone is possible w/o a guitar cab. Would you agree it's a matter of learning how to get a great tone out of the Axe-Fx?

When you listen to a concert, you're hearing exactly that: a mic'ed guitar cab through a more or less linear system. Now, tell me you've never heard a good tone at a concert. Where would the difference be with a CLR/linear system?

Chances are you don't like the tones you can get out of your Axe-Fx. Of course you can't expect to feed an FRFR system with the same signal you'd use for a guitar cab and get the same sound: you have to learn how to compensate for the differences.
I'm no expert in describing Axe-Fx' limits in creating and shaping every kind of tone. Maybe it's not for you (meaning it can't reproduce the tone you're after). What I know for sure is that the CLR (and any really linear and transparent loudspeaker system) can amplify and diffuse exactly what comes out of the preamp. So, with such a device tone sculpturing has (to simplify it) to be done entirely in the pre, letting the cab just amplify it.

Last, but not least (even tho probably least meaningful to you), when you play on stage a PA is most often what people are hearing. Learning how to send a great tone to the house implies the same mind-shape required to get a great tone with devices like the Axe or the Profiler, even tho with different tools.

Having said this, you're of course totally entitled to your opinions and to your personal tone-chasing. I just don't find fair your need for blaming others or giving "creative" interpretations of others' personal paths.

:)

Peace and Axes
 
IOW, you stated that people are scared to express bad opinions about the product. This is possibly true (I mean, that some people respond to this description). I also understand your frustration for a bad purchase. But, beyond your words, you seem to imply that there can't be a happy CLR user unless they don't have a clue about good tone, which is clearly bs.

I never said anything of the sort. Your projecting that one. I believe someone can be happy with a CLR. I can't be, because I believe I know know the difference.That's not BS, that's who I am.

Here follow some things I believe, listed in no special order:

you seem to imply that a good tone is a tone you like. But the truth is, that everyone is after a tone they have in their mind; I have also heard people with a great tone put out of any piece of wood with some strings on it;

Not following your analogy, but I think I get your point.

when you write about people stating that "CLRs can do no wrong", you seem to imply that they're saying that they will sound great no matter what they feed them with, which is manifestly a distortion of reality.
OTOH, I feel confident when I state that what they mean is that a CLR can output exactly what you feed it with ("no wrong" = "truthful");


Again not my meaning...I feel that people give these things way more hype then they deserve. It was a figure of speech.

you said Zappa sounded great through PA. So you're saying that a good tone is possible w/o a guitar cab. Would you agree it's a matter of learning how to get a great tone out of the Axe-Fx?

I guess your right on that one. However, Zappa was the only tone that grabbed me by the balls. Everything else sounded like it was coming through crappy PA. We all know he's a bit of a genious. Not gonna fault myself for failing to accomplish what he has. Very few do. Also, I'm not sure what I was hearing because his tones are very unconventional and experimental.

When you listen to a concert, you're hearing exactly that: a mic'ed guitar cab through a more or less linear system. Now, tell me you've never heard a good tone at a concert. Where would the difference be with a CLR/linear system?

I'm not saying a PA system can't sound good. Now we all know that some (PA/sound guys) do better than others. that aside, think about the complex relationship between tube amp and speaker. If that is then miced and put through a PA, Your likely to hear that relationship translated to some degree as opposed to a solid state rig which really doesn't have the same feel. this argument is another quagmire to get lost in so, I'm not gonna go any farther.

Chances are you don't like the tones you can get out of your Axe-Fx. Of course you can't expect to feed an FRFR system with the same signal you'd use for a guitar cab and get the same sound: you have to learn how to compensate for the differences.
I'm no expert in describing Axe-Fx' limits in creating and shaping every kind of tone. Maybe it's not for you (meaning it can't reproduce the tone you're after). What I know for sure is that the CLR (and any really linear and transparent loudspeaker system) can amplify and diffuse exactly what comes out of the preamp. So, with such a device tone sculpturing has (to simplify it) to be done entirely in the pre, letting the cab just amplify it.


I'm not even going to debate my feelings about the Axe with you. Total nonsense. You're missing one major point with the pre....The power amp modeling! Your thinking here is the exact problem in my view. I've learned through others who know what they're talking about, that the relationship between amp and speaker is a huge part of the tone. Outside of the basic knowledge I learned through the speaker page, I was totally oblivious to this until I met my engineer friend and we talked at length. I'm not going to get into it here because its Cliff level knowledge that could fill volumes. I'm also not going to claim to fully understand it.


Last, but not least (even tho probably least meaningful to you), when you play on stage a PA is most often what people are hearing. Learning how to send a great tone to the house implies the same mind-shape required to get a great tone with devices like the Axe or the Profiler, even tho with different tools.

On the contrary, I bought into this idea for the reason of wanting to sound like I hear myself through my rig. If we're gonna put it all out there, you're really being condescending here. If that's how your gonna play, I have no problem telling you where to stick it.

Having said this, you're of course totally entitled to your opinions and to your personal tone-chasing. I just don't find fair your need for blaming others or giving "creative" interpretations of others' personal paths. :)
Peace and Axes


I'm really just tired of my demographic not representing themselves. I see these things for sale used all of the time. They're out there. I'll admit that nobody here deserves my wrath except for people like you, who think they got me pegged then go projecting their own stuff back onto me. That is the nature of conflict though.
 
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