Consensus on FRFR stuff, improvements

K

King Tone

Inspired
I am just trying to get a feel for what the popular consensus is on the use of FRFR in a live situation and any tips from real players that do club size venues on up to larger, (sorry bedroom players and church guys!) that perform a lot for improvements. I have been using the axe 2 for about 6 years with power amp and speaker (happily) so I am not new in that respect but FRFR is new.

My methods so far ---
I have an axe 2 and atomic clr. I run it in backline position with the sub switch in the bass reduced setting. I set the input on clr as hot as I can with the axe at noon. This is about 2 o'clock on input, any hotter and the clip light comes on. Master all the way up all the time! I don't run it in wedge style because it is way too harsh or at least it seems so to me.

In cab block I reduce frequencies from the low cut and hi cut filters. (On dirty sounds especially) I run a parametric after the cab block and reduce more highs. It seems very muddy at lower volumes to get it sounding ok at higher volumes. And yes, I know everyone's favorite term on the forum is fletcher munson. On clean it does not seem as necessary to use the parametric as strongly. I have not tried the mid boost trick mentioned from the wiki yet, maybe I will soon.

Results live---
I feel like the sounds are good. I had things so dialed in for so long with a power amp and real cab that maybe it's just an adjustment period. Sort of had to start over with settings going flat response. Maybe it could be better...not sure really. I wish the clr was louder/had more headroom. I know some folks are going to say I'm not doing something right...I am open to tips to make improvements. I have matched it as mentioned and have had something happen a couple of times that NEVER happens...I have been asked to turn up. I have played loud all my life and this is not it. My 1x12 with power amp flattens the clr on volume. Seems to get crazy loud in my house but when the band is playing it gets swallowed. Not too intrigued with the idea of speaker on a stick or wedge style.

Maybe I am missing a real amp..? I would love to hear from players on frfr tweaks, hicut tips,...is the friedman FRFR louder or better for someone like me than the clr?

Thank you very much.
 
What type of music, how loud is your stage volume? CLRs elevated in B/L, or on the floor? (On the floor in B/L is the worst of all options IMHO).
 
I am in Nashville and play on Broadway so there is certainly a country element and female singer but we play almost anything, Reba, Miranda, etc up to Journey, Def Leppard and GnR. Backline position but on a ledge (almost like the drum riser) I would not say the stage volume is that crazy. I mean there are screens to put in front of amps and the clr has enough trouble keeping up I can move the screen and nobody complains. I can confidently tell you fender combos can get louder! Sometimes it gets a little loud but certainly not ever like it was in rock bands I use to be in. It is interesting that I saw someone else say they did not like backline. It always worked perfectly with regular amps...I guess I just hate the idea of that harsh in your face wedge sound, so I have used it backline ever since the first harsh experience. I would be really curious to stand/play in the position of someone else's rig and see what they would call good or acceptable. I was pretty happy with the power amp and real cab but that just seemed to be too much stuff to carry to gigs four times a week. Everyone else has a fender combo and a small pedalboard.
 
add on questions to the previous---
what kind of gigs do you guys play that use this kind of setup? are you all super happy with your frfr rig? what did you have previously?
 
I own a pair of both passive and active wedges, and my experience tells me that a pair of active CLRs should be able to carry a pretty loud stage, arguably even a metal band on a loud stage. I work with a guitarist in a rock/hard rock/metal/classic rock band that is pretty loud, in some good sized rooms 400+ capacity, and he uses his AxeFxII with just one active CLR in wedge position aimed up at him. He nor the band have ever had a complaint about low volume, and he's got headroom to spare. 2 active CLRs would be unnecessary and extra work.

Do your gigs not allow for additional foldback wedges on stage?

I suspect something isn't quite right somewhere. Are you sure that your wedges are working properly, and that the high end element is OK (run a test tone through them)? Any chance you can post up some of the .syx preset files (with f/w version) that cause the most problems topping out the headroom of the CLRs, to see if other CLR owners can verify for volume? Guitar specs, out of curiosity?

FWIW, if I ever needed more gain out of the CLRs, which has happened to me as a bassist using them, I'd opt for using a power amp with the passive wedges rather than actives. This way you aren't bound by the amp specs, digital processing, and input clipping gain controls that exist on the Active CLR, provided that you aren't overpowering the passives to the point where you're risking damage.

That said, with the Active CLR, leave the SUB switch off (no bass cut), try the Bass CUT switch on the amp block, and experiment with the MultiBand Comp, set so that the bass frequencies are somewhat limited, which will help keep the CLR input from clipping (low end will initiate this sooner than mid/high end), while allowing the mid & high bands to pass through either uncompressed, or only mildly compressed. Ideally, this shouldn't be necessary, but it sounds like you need to try to extract the most SPL capable, and the MBC might help in that department.

FWIW.
 
I played Broadway for a couple of years with the Axe and a CLR, tilted, switch in tilt position. Not tilted like a wedge but just a couple of inches. Absolutely killed, always. Never did any drastic cuts or anything crazy. I'd try the switch in tilt and give it just a slight tilt off the floor. I believe that's the "recommended" method, has always sounded most accurate to my ears.

What amp/ir are you using? Maybe upload a patch? Recording?
 
Ok, first of all thanks for your replies.
I'm going to try to address all of your comments/suggestions above.
Maybe if I used a wedge position the volume would punch me a lot harder. The problem is that is such a harsh kind of sound so i did it one time and hated it. Maybe a revisit..? In speaking on my experience in backline position I would not say I have really any spare headroom. At absolute max (based on my input gain matching, clip it pull it back a bit, master all the way up) it is ok but not really any more headroom left. I am using front wedges as well as the clr. I would say generally they are a little smoother tone although sometimes I will ask the soundman to roll some highs off. Without the wedges I don't think I would hear the clr as well as I would like. It functions fine, no high end issues. I think it does about what it is supposed to do, I just think, in my opinion it could be louder. As a wedge I am sure it would be louder, as would any speaker. I just hate the idea of a wedge sounding harsh in my face like that. I am on the latest FW (not beta) and I have been using a couple of ML Sound IRs (purchased) and very often plexi sounds such as plexi hi. Using a Suhr Custom Classic T with aldrich pickups(very high output) mogami cable. Here is a screenshot of the preset...


 
I do have a 2-3 db boost setup up for solos (that is the second volume block) so I have allotted for that to not clip the axe outputs. Other than that It is cranked up very close to the threshold. I mean maybe this is the way it is supposed to be and FRFR is just not for me. I am wondering about that...played a friedman small box head into a 1x12 and it was pretty much perfect in all respects.
 
i usually sat mine up a few feet behind me, tilted resting on the lid to my rack case...so it was literally just a couple of inches off the floor...but def enough to open the dispersion up. I would also get the sound guys to add some of my guitar to my vocal wedge, but just for vibe, not because I couldn't hear. This was at places like the Tin Roof, The Stage, Rippy's, etc....
 
I am doing Crossroads, Stage Roof Top, Second Fiddle a lot. I put the clr on the ledge (sort of like drum riser) but backline straight. I can hear it but I feel like it is pretty close to the limit before clipping. Maybe I am wrong and I can push the input more but it has been matched the way they tell you in the manual so I was scared to push it. Of course I probably like it louder than most.
 
i was being asked to turned down a lot more than i was worried about pushing it too far....this was with a pretty loud band. the sweet spot dispersion is a lot wider than a regular cab, but it doesn't fill a room like a regular cab does, that's my guess as to what you are struggling with, especially if you were used to an open back cab (what i've seen most guys Lower Broad) use. I think what you need is there, just need to find it. I'd say try what i did, slight tilt up behind you where the sweet spot is a little more towards your ears, eq switch in tilt, fill in a little more volume with your wedge. I think you'll be happy. i'd also maybe find a different IR so you don't feel the need to get eq crazy. i can try to upload by basic country template. uses a user cab but maybe i can find something in the stock cabs that's in the ballpark.
 
I am pretty different than most broadway guys. I am a bit older and lived through the 80s. I am really a fusion player, classic rock, and so on. I use a suhr guitar, not a beat up tele, no fender combos and tube screamer for me! I always have used closed back cabs, high gain marshall type sounds, etc...I can get some clean fender/vox type sounds that are ok. I was asked to turn down except when I got the clr! I am going to work with it some more but I must admit the friedman bit me and there might be no cure! I went through IRs and chose a dark one on purpose and it still can be bright if not careful.
 
Have you reached out to Tom King from Atomic to see if he's got anything to suggest? He's pretty active in corresponding with CLR owners. Did you purchase them new?

I'm into pretty loud stuff, and I can't imagine a pair of CLRs maxing out and not being loud enough. No kidding, I've had to turn them down a couple times airing them out for fear of hurting myself.[Edit: OP is describing a single CLR.]

I'm not saying that your case is out of the question, but just that it is pretty unusual to max out the headroom as described. I've read it happening for players who use darker, really dynamic jazz tones, but for most rock tones...???

Interested to see where this lands.
 
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I use a single CLR as a wedge in tilt mode and it competes no problem with a loud drummer, backline bass amp, and two other wedges for other band members.

I run my vocal, fractal and a monitor send from the desk.

I am routinely asked to turn it down too. It has the most gain before feedback of all of our gear.

I make my clean presets a little over 0 VU in the utility pages before boosts. I make my distorted presets right on 0 VU. I adjust my drive block levels by ear.

I run Out 2 unbalanced -> CLR. I leave output 2 front panel level around noon.
 
King Tone said:
Ok, first of all thanks for your replies.
I'm going to try to address all of your comments/suggestions above.
Maybe if I used a wedge position the volume would punch me a lot harder. The problem is that is such a harsh kind of sound so i did it one time and hated it. Maybe a revisit..? In speaking on my experience in backline position I would not say I have really any spare headroom. At absolute max (based on my input gain matching, clip it pull it back a bit, master all the way up) it is ok but not really any more headroom left. I am using front wedges as well as the clr. I would say generally they are a little smoother tone although sometimes I will ask the soundman to roll some highs off. Without the wedges I don't think I would hear the clr as well as I would like. It functions fine, no high end issues. I think it does about what it is supposed to do, I just think, in my opinion it could be louder. As a wedge I am sure it would be louder, as would any speaker. I just hate the idea of a wedge sounding harsh in my face like that. I am on the latest FW (not beta) and I have been using a couple of ML Sound IRs (purchased) and very often plexi sounds such as plexi hi. Using a Suhr Custom Classic T with aldrich pickups(very high output) mogami cable. Here is a screenshot of the preset...


Click to expand...

I use the CLR as a personal monitor for theatre/mid-size club gigs with the PA doing the heavy lifting. Output 1 goes FoH and Output 2 goes to the CLR. I use this primarily in the wedge position firing back at me from in front of my MFC. Alternatively, if the monitoring is poor, I pop it on a speaker stand firing from behind me and to the right so it's dispersing back across the stage for my bandmates. I've only used it to carry the room once and it didn't have any problems. I had this on the speaker pole again.

I also struggle to find my "space" in the sound as I play in an 80s band and am competing with a pair of synthesisers. I find that Tyler Grund's PEQ FRFR "live" boost is invaluable for ensuring I'm in the right sonic "space". I also found that too drastic a high cut loses the sizzle that helps a guitar cut. I'm a perfect example of dialling something that sounds terrific at home and then disappearing with the band.

A question about your preset, and forgive me as I don't use the send/return functionality in my presets so this is likely a stupid question, but should the Return block have a connection to the input?

Cheers,
Simon
 
fox5150 said:
I use the CLR as a personal monitor for theatre/mid-size club gigs with the PA doing the heavy lifting. Output 1 goes FoH and Output 2 goes to the CLR. I use this primarily in the wedge position firing back at me from in front of my MFC. Alternatively, if the monitoring is poor, I pop it on a speaker stand firing from behind me and to the right so it's dispersing back across the stage for my bandmates. I've only used it to carry the room once and it didn't have any problems. I had this on the speaker pole again.

I also struggle to find my "space" in the sound as I play in an 80s band and am competing with a pair of synthesisers. I find that Tyler Grund's PEQ FRFR "live" boost is invaluable for ensuring I'm in the right sonic "space". I also found that too drastic a high cut loses the sizzle that helps a guitar cut. I'm a perfect example of dialling something that sounds terrific at home and then disappearing with the band.

A question about your preset, and forgive me as I don't use the send/return functionality in my presets so this is likely a stupid question, but should the Return block have a connection to the input?

Cheers,
Simon
Click to expand...

Hey Fox5150, how did you go about sorting you "disappearin in hte mix" issue in competition with the synth guys ?
 
King Tone said:
I don't run it in wedge style because it is way too harsh or at least it seems so to me.
Click to expand...
there's your missing volume, and if it's harsh, that means your sending a harsh signal everywhere else and to the people directly in line with the speaker.
 
mmpete said:
Hey Fox5150, how did you go about sorting you "disappearin in hte mix" issue in competition with the synth guys ?
Click to expand...

Pretty much with what I said in the post you quoted. The PEQ midrange boost is critical. I tend to get a sound I like, then just pop that in, stroll up at band practice and that's near enough. I cut at 85Hz in the cab block but don't drop anything from the high end as I find it's unnecessary.

As long as there's a keyboard going on, you're always going to struggle unless you're playing very different parts. As there's seven of us (two singers, drums, bass, guitar, keyboards & sax (and wind synth)) in the band, I've had to adjust what I'm playing so that there's a definite "oh look there's the guitar" on a lot of synth driven songs. I generally go for broken chords, rather than full when that's the case. I'm lucky in that the group of people I play with are extremely professional and we've managed to carve out our own part of the sound space, even if it means relinquishing the authentic sound to make room for the others.
 
Chris@AxeFxTutorials said:
there's your missing volume, and if it's harsh, that means your sending a harsh signal everywhere else and to the people directly in line with the speaker.
Click to expand...

It seems everyone thinks the least optimum way to use the clr is like a backline (normal) guitar cabinet. So does everyone love that in your face sound? Of course there is more volume that way. It is directly pointed at your face. I feel that is a pretty unnatural sound that way, I am definitely more used to normal backline cabs with some air between you and the cab and certainly not pointed at my face. I would not say I run very harsh sounds. I asked the soundman recently what he did to my guitar tone in the pa and he said he ran it flat and it sounded great. Oddly enough it sounds better to my ears (not as harsh) through the wedge monitors which I am using up front to help get more coverage. People hearing the pa would not perceive it as harsh as I do because the cabs are far away (flown) where mine is close to me.
 
fox5150 said:
Pretty much with what I said in the post you quoted. The PEQ midrange boost is critical. I tend to get a sound I like, then just pop that in, stroll up at band practice and that's near enough. I cut at 85Hz in the cab block but don't drop anything from the high end as I find it's unnecessary.

As long as there's a keyboard going on, you're always going to struggle unless you're playing very different parts. As there's seven of us (two singers, drums, bass, guitar, keyboards & sax (and wind synth)) in the band, I've had to adjust what I'm playing so that there's a definite "oh look there's the guitar" on a lot of synth driven songs. I generally go for broken chords, rather than full when that's the case. I'm lucky in that the group of people I play with are extremely professional and we've managed to carve out our own part of the sound space, even if it means relinquishing the authentic sound to make room for the others.
Click to expand...


I started running the PEQ midrange boost trick and that certainly can help sometimes. I think I sort of disagree slightly about the keyboards. I can hear and be heard better with a keyboard player. With another guitar player with, for example, a fender combo, whole different idea. Much harder to compete. Just my experience.
 
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