Comparing the II + Power Amp vs. the "Real Deal"

G

Gasp100

Power User
I'm about to pull the trigger on a Bogner Shiva. But before I do, I'm considering one last shot of the II + power amp + real cab.
I LOVED the II into the CLR, but it's still not exactly the same as a killer tube amp into a well matched cab. I would consider the matrix (had a II and GT800FX but that was quite a while ago on very young firmware) but I'm still wary of SS vs. real tube power. I don't know if that could possibly be any better than the II + CLR and good IR's and it definitely would not be as flexible.
I'm interested in a full blown tube amp as a reality check / reference amp to the II as well. The goal would be to KEEP the II in house for recording, acoustic to PA gigs and bigger gigs where I don't want to mic and they have a great house system. I would use the real amp a lot for home use, some light recording and for gigs where I want simple backline, no PA.
Again, a tube power amp might be the "answer" but the II is pretty heavy, a tube power amp is heavy and expensive, etc...

Anyone do DIRECT comparisons with II + power amp (like to hear about Matrix AND tube power amps) vs. real deal high quality amps?
Lets leave FRFR out for this discussion.
Go!!!
 
I ran the Axe through the power section of a Mark V for awhile. Sounded and felt great. If you can afford the Shiva and the Axe, get both! You can use the Shiva as your power amp with the Axe, or just by itself. Lots of possibilities there.

I ended up picking up a Matrix purely for the portability. It sounds really great, but not quite the same as tube amp.
 
I tell you what. I just decided to run my AXE through the power section of my Shiva this weekend and it's some of the best tones I've had. I have a Matrix GT1000. To me, at least for the amp models I tried, the shiva power section was much more rewarding.

On a side note, I can't go without the AXE. Just my Shiva or Twin + pedals doesn't cut it anymore. The versatility of the AXE is still better than a full analog tube setup IMO.

The only catch now is getting that amp in the room feel when you want it. And I'm not referring to FRFR solutions either, that's a different animal.
 
I had the matrix GT1000FX 1U for a while. for an SS power amp I thought
it was really good, but when I compared it to my Fryette 2/50/2, it just didn't have that "bounce"
that you get from tubes.
I run output 2 into the loop of my JSX head now and I love the fact that with one setting changed I can either use my patches through the power section
or use my "effects only" patch and run the JSX head as a head and just use the Axe Fx II effects.
I really like my CLR (and amazingly I really like this Seismic SA-15" too) but the feel is definitely "different" through a tube amp->regular cab.
So I keep both, for whatever mood strikes me :)
I haven't tried a Bogner head for power yet, but I have tried
JSX
Marshall JVM210 (the 50 watt head)
Marshall JCM 2000 TSL
Mesa 50/50
Carvin TS100
Fryette 2/50/2
Mesa 2:90
Carvin Legacy 2X12 combo
 
The interaction between a Tube amp and guitar cab is going to be different then a SS amp and guitar cab. Steve Fryette explains the reasons why in this vid at 2:25 that has to do with the Impedance differences between the two types of amps, SS and Tube. You might hold out a little longer for an LXII and a good cab and keep the CLR, unless you need to dump it to fund the other equipment personally that's what I would do.

 
I guess the LXII sounds better. Hard to tell in a YouTube video, It's different, but probably not really discernible in a mix to anyone listening. The biggest difference is only going to be discernible to the player but that can make all the difference. Nice to see another 1-rack space tube power amp option available.

Regarding the Shiva, great sounding amp! Very loud, and very heavy. I still have my Budda Superdrive 30 that I use as a tonal reference every once in a while to remember what a real amp sounds/feels like. I'll never go back to using an amp because the advantages using a modeler going direct are just too great for what I need to do. As much as I love the AxeII, there's still no substitute for plugging directly into a great amp, IMO.

The Axe with the Matrix power amps sounds fantastic, but the feel and interaction is not quite the same as an amp. The sound is definitely there for amp-in-the-room tones, but the feel is a bit different. For me it wasn't enough of a difference to bother me and I was very happy with the GT1000 and a cabinet. I just decided to go all FRFR to simplify my setup and use FRFR in all settings instead of switching back and forth between FRFR in some settings and power amp/cab in other settings. But I can see myself looking into the LXII down the road....
 
I've owned and gigged - hard - three Shiva's over the years. Through Bogner 112, 212 and 412 cabs. Killer amps, one of my all time favorites.

When you get yours, mic it up in another room and then compare it apples to apples through a studio DAW setup recording vs. the Axe-FX II direct.

I would not trade my AFXII for a Shiva or even 50 amps in the AFXII if there was no price attached. (*Though if you were to trade me 50 amps for my AFXII, I'll do the deal. ;) ) *BUT* I am not you and my choices have no bearing on anything other than me.

If you don't want a mix ready tone for FOH and just want a STELLAR amp on stage with 2 good tones (clean and dirty) and perhaps a few shades of other tones with a pedal or two, the Shiva is a GREAT choice.

Will a AFXII/separate power amp/conventional cab get you a Shiva? No. It'll come close, but don't kid yourself if you are being totally honest. The poweramp and cab are not Bogner Shiva and they'll never be. Will it yield a great usable on-stage tone? Probably, yes! But this is not that is not this other thing.

People try to kid themselves all the time that this *IS* that. Not so.

But one is not the other is not the other.
 
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Scott Peterson said:
When you get yours, mic it up in another room and then compare it apples to apples through a studio DAW setup recording vs. the Axe-FX II direct.
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This right here is where I think a lot of these discussions are missing or are being mis-directed.... The OP said "leave FRFR out of the discussion" because, I'm assuming he's seeking more of a direct relationship with the "amp", whatever that "amp" is....

By the time you remove yourself from the (you>guitar>amp>your ears) circle, then you have ventured into a completely different realm. You are now a listener, or you're isolated from the amp. You're no longer *interacting* directly with the amplifier.

BUT, if you're trying to maintain that direct relationship with the guitar and amplifier, then I think you have to consider the missing link might be that tube power, of which nearly all the AXE models are based upon.

I also need to clarify one word I used incorrectly in my post above. When running through my Shiva power section (still using AXE for amp models), it was some of the best "feel" I've ever had, not "tones". The actual "tones" have been great ever since I got my AXE, but it's the "feel" that hasn't quite been 100% satisfying. I'm finally coming to this conclusion after a couple years. It's hard to decipher at first, because all those great tones are right there in the box and it gets you 90% of the way towards your dream tones. But, for me, that last 10% is all in the punchy response of a tube power section.
 
I've compared my AxeFx II to my Shiva combo, vintage Fenders and my vintage JCM800 using a Crown SS power amp and real guitar cabs.

I think SS amps are more versatile with the Fractal because you can get all the power amp modeling goodness baked into the firmware. To my ears, the virtual power amp modeling is not the same on every amp model. So you get more variety by using an SS amp and keeping the power amp sims on.

The Fractal does sound GREAT through a power amp and guitar cab setup.

(I really love my Shiva combo too. I keep thinking I'm going to sell it but haven't yet. I don't use it as much as I used to. I'm using two CLR's with my Fractal rig right now mostly. I still have some great backline amps that I need now n' then though.)
 
i think a lot of it is volume. i've also struggled a bit with the "connection" issue. that feeling you have playing next to a great amp, how it feels like an extension of your hands and the guitar. how notes leap off the fretboard, feedback happens effortlessly.

what I've found is that when you can get the right amount of volume, it's there. we were doing a gig this past saturday and were at a good volume and my Axe/CLR rig FELT right, felt like and amp.
 
jlynnb1 said:
i think a lot of it is volume. i've also struggled a bit with the "connection" issue. that feeling you have playing next to a great amp, how it feels like an extension of your hands and the guitar. how notes leap off the fretboard, feedback happens effortlessly.

what I've found is that when you can get the right amount of volume, it's there. we were doing a gig this past saturday and were at a good volume and my Axe/CLR rig FELT right, felt like and amp.
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I completely agree.
 
Thanks guys, you probably know my history with Fractal (and Kemper, and Zoom, and 11 Rack lol). I picked up a VHT Pitbull 45 combo yesterday at GC for an amazing price. I have to tell you, it brings back a bounce and touch response and CONNECTION that I haven't had since I sold my very cheap and very simple Vox AC15C1 (with a Celestion Blue). This weekend I hope to do a good amount of testing with the Pitbull, the AxeFX II (through both studio monitor ADAM A5's and my EVZLX112P's), my memory of the CLR, short videos I recorded of the II + CLR and finally the II into the FX loop of the Pitbull. The amp has some great options for the FX loop including serial / paralell / out of circuit, a volume control, etc... I can tell you from very recent memory with the CLR LOUD vs. now the Pitbull in the room (moderate volume so far) they are EXTREMELY close. BUT, there is a bounce, sheen, juice that I'm getting from a high quality tube amp that I did not get with the CLR.
I'm 100% convinced that the II recorded direct, played through FOH, played through wedge monitors trumps ANYTHING! But I'm really starting to think for a backline situation (what I hear/feel/enjoy) at a smaller gig where I don't mic OR a bigger gig where I run OUT 1 FOH and OUT 2 into power amp cab that will just be ideal.
I started to have this feeling when I was messing with IR's and many different sims in the II about a week ago (before I sold the CLR).
I really wanted a killer AC15 or 30 tone, I wanted a fantastic Deluxe Reverb tone, I wanted a big fat JTM45 and a broken Plexi and the EVH Blue channel and, and, and. The distinction was really great through the CLR (and studio monitors) which proves to me for low volume and direct recording I'm golden. But you know what? At gigs I just want killer cleans, killer broken, killer rock drive and big soaring leads. But I also want that tube bounce and harmonic content at low to moderate volumes at home and at a gig.
I've only had 2 full band gigs in the last 3 months. I left my last band and played a cooking AC15C1 with a Celestion Blue (Zoom G3X in front for light FX) and my tone killed live and felt great. I played the II into CLR as backline (and some FOH) with my new band and it was not as satisfying honestly. At the end of the day I didn't gel with the CLR as a backline option. Could have been positioning, IR's, whatever... I think CLR should be at least pole mounted if not used as a dedicated wedge.
Anyway, I still want versatility but maybe I don't need it at the level of switching from completely different amp/cab systems patch to patch.
I'm going to do a lot of II testing this weekend but I'm really leaning towards II + tube power amp + great cab.
 
Gasp100 said:
...for low volume and direct recording I'm golden. But you know what? At gigs I just want killer cleans, killer broken, killer rock drive and big soaring leads. But I also want that tube bounce and harmonic content at low to moderate volumes at home and at a gig.
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Exactly.... I love all the tones in the AXE, but for a live band situation, all the switching around and different amps/IR's etc, is a bit overkill, and has my tone all over the place. At least this is the conclusion I'm coming to. We recently did a block party and I had my RCF monitor on the ground in front of me, and direct into the FOH. It "sounded" good, but I was missing something in my playing experience.

Gasp100 said:
...Anyway, I still want versatility but maybe I don't need it at the level of switching from completely different amp/cab systems patch to patch.
I'm going to do a lot of II testing this weekend but I'm really leaning towards II + tube power amp + great cab.
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Anxious to hear your results on this.... as I just started fiddling with my AXE as a preamp into my Bogner power section... a few Fender amps I tried were just killer for cleans and slightly driven bluesy tones. To me they sounded best with power amp modeling off and cabs off. But when I switched to a higher gain type amp, I was like "uh-oh", this won't be as easy as I thought.... I was trying power amp on and off and I wasn't happy with the tone I was getting. I'm sure the tones I'm looking for are there, just have to figure out what works vs. what doesn't.

The other concern I'm anticipating is this: The AMP block will be tweaked for optimum tone/feel when running into tube amp + cab. Even if I was to somehow run this same signal into the FOH, I'm not sure the tone will be optimum for FOH. I'm afraid the preamp settings will be different enough to where you won't have optimum tone for either signal.
 
nater said:
Exactly.... I love all the tones in the AXE, but for a live band situation, all the switching around and different amps/IR's etc, is a bit overkill, and has my tone all over the place. At least this is the conclusion I'm coming to. We recently did a block party and I had my RCF monitor on the ground in front of me, and direct into the FOH. It "sounded" good, but I was missing something in my playing experience. Anxious to hear your results on this.... as I just started fiddling with my AXE as a preamp into my Bogner power section... a few Fender amps I tried were just killer for cleans and slightly driven bluesy tones. To me they sounded best with power amp modeling off and cabs off. But when I switched to a higher gain type amp, I was like "uh-oh", this won't be as easy as I thought.... I was trying power amp on and off and I wasn't happy with the tone I was getting. I'm sure the tones I'm looking for are there, just have to figure out what works vs. what doesn't. The other concern I'm anticipating is this: The AMP block will be tweaked for optimum tone/feel when running into tube amp + cab. Even if I was to somehow run this same signal into the FOH, I'm not sure the tone will be optimum for FOH. I'm afraid the preamp settings will be different enough to where you won't have optimum tone for either signal.
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If I were to commit to the split of power amp / cab and output 1 FOH I would create the absolute best IRs I could with the entire rig and use them on all "live" presets. I think a lot of people do this with good results, but I see your point if you also disable power amp simulation. I would try to keep power amp simulation on all of the time or possibly tweak GEQ on the output that requires it or use a GEQ or PEQ block if required.
 
I just did a one hour "blasting" session (the wife and kid are out) using my JSX and my 2 wedges
separate and together W/D/W.
I have noticed something about the CLR. it sounds really really good at low volume (by myself practice level with the family upstairs)
At moderate volume I don't love it something feels like it's missing.
Cranked up a bit it 's really good, it comes alive.
I'm starting to think that it may be overkill for my needs. It is a stage monitor and I am using it in my house.
I switched back over to my JSX (with no AXE FX involved) and there it was , that tube bounce, that shimmer that fullness, that ....whatever you want to call it.
then I switched back to my Axe into the JSX. there is was again , but different, more polite and polished sounding than the "real" preamp.
I decided to do a quick test and went to the bypass patch on Bank C (decided to start from scratch) and just dropped in a Marshal Pre (the JMP-1) model, turned off the
power amp sims and tweaked it out a bit. I got the best sound I've had all night. All the Feel that I don't get from the CLR
and sharper clearer sounding than the JSX pre amp.
I don't think the AXe FX is lacking in any way here at all , I think that if you're really used to playing through
Tube amps (like I am , I've never owned anything solid state until I got involved with the Axe Fx) then you will
notice it while you're playing, to me it has absolutely nothing to do with sound but with response/feel.
Hmmm...now I'm kind of on the fence about getting rid of my CLR and Seismic wedges ............ :?
my rokits and 2X12 may be plenty for what I'm doing. I wish that damn fryette LX II would come out already
 
I'm endorsed by Bogner and made the switch to the AxeFx a couple years back. My main gigging amps prior to that we're Bogner shivas. El34s and a Bogner shiva 20th anniversary with El34s.

I've compared both to the axe fx (with matrix gt800fx) in the same room and the same cab. I gig full-time about 4 nights a week. The axe and the shiva do very well in all situations.

So in full disclosure and honesty. The axe gets 90-95% there. Usually on the upper end of that spectrum. Both in tone and feel. That's with FOH, silent stages, in ear monitors, stage volume only, outdoors, indoors, church gigs and on tours. The only differences are in the "feel" and the tone. Especially gigs where there's really clean power for the shiva.

I can live without that 5% at the expense of a smaller rig, a quiter rig, multiple amps, easy patch building/preset making, adjustable overdrives, 2 cables (1 midi and 1 guitar), no patch cables, happy soundmen, lighter weight and more.

I still fire up my Bogner every now and then just for fun but the amps stay in the studio for home recording. Your mileage may vary but some people can live with that 5%, others can't.
 
RoshRoslin said:
I'm endorsed by Bogner and made the switch to the AxeFx a couple years back. My main gigging amps prior to that we're Bogner shivas. El34s and a Bogner shiva 20th anniversary with El34s.

I've compared both to the axe fx (with matrix gt800fx) in the same room and the same cab. I gig full-time about 4 nights a week. The axe and the shiva do very well in all situations.

So in full disclosure and honesty. The axe gets 90-95% there. Usually on the upper end of that spectrum. Both in tone and feel. That's with FOH, silent stages, in ear monitors, stage volume only, outdoors, indoors, church gigs and on tours. The only differences are in the "feel" and the tone. Especially gigs where there's really clean power for the shiva.

I can live without that 5% at the expense of a smaller rig, a quiter rig, multiple amps, easy patch building/preset making, adjustable overdrives, 2 cables (1 midi and 1 guitar), no patch cables, happy soundmen, lighter weight and more.

I still fire up my Bogner every now and then just for fun but the amps stay in the studio for home recording. Your mileage may vary but some people can live with that 5%, others can't.
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Thanks, this is really helpful!
 
RoshRoslin said:
I'm endorsed by Bogner and made the switch to the AxeFx a couple years back. My main gigging amps prior to that we're Bogner shivas. El34s and a Bogner shiva 20th anniversary with El34s.

I've compared both to the axe fx (with matrix gt800fx) in the same room and the same cab. I gig full-time about 4 nights a week. The axe and the shiva do very well in all situations.

So in full disclosure and honesty. The axe gets 90-95% there. Usually on the upper end of that spectrum. Both in tone and feel. That's with FOH, silent stages, in ear monitors, stage volume only, outdoors, indoors, church gigs and on tours. The only differences are in the "feel" and the tone. Especially gigs where there's really clean power for the shiva.

I can live without that 5% at the expense of a smaller rig, a quiter rig, multiple amps, easy patch building/preset making, adjustable overdrives, 2 cables (1 midi and 1 guitar), no patch cables, happy soundmen, lighter weight and more.

I still fire up my Bogner every now and then just for fun but the amps stay in the studio for home recording. Your mileage may vary but some people can live with that 5%, others can't.
Click to expand...

+1

well said
 
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