CLR for bass

jimfist

jimfist

Fractal Fanatic
Just got my pair of Active CLR Wedges, and spent a few hours playing with them last night. All cool and the gang, but I always reserve judgement on gear until A) I've used it in the heat of battle on a gig and B) I've done enough shows successfully that I don't have to worry about reliability.

Doing a few shows of various types this weekend and will keep you posted on my findings. Just from living room listening last night (via the AxeFxII in stereo), I'm really impressed by the clarity, imaging and balanced tone of these wedges. In the Free Field position on tripods, of course it misses a little in oomph below 80hz, but it still rattles the pictures on the walls with no problem. Will be curious to see how one in Backline position + one above mounted on a pole in Free Field will sound, with the bottom cabinet coupling with the floor. Still, I can still see how for guitar, a pair of these can melt your face...no kidding. Above 80hz these things can get very VERY loud.

I don't expect the two CLRs to compare necessarily with bass amp cabinets, designed for bass guitar, with ported boxes designed to enhance low end frequencies. If I really wanted that, I'd add a subwoofer to the rig, but I'm looking to go smaller, not bigger. Exactly how they fare in a 5 piece band in a decent sized club is what I'm looking to establish. I'm already confident they'll perform very well as floor vocal wedges, as small PA on sticks, and for less demanding (volume level) gigs. I also will be showing the AxeFx & CLR rig to my buddy for him to audition, so I can hear a real guitarist play through the rig.
 
Well Jim - you know my (and my bass players) opinion on CLRs for bass, but I'm interested in hearing yours when you've lived with them for a while. Please keep us posted
 
yeah, Rocket Brother, I remember your post from July, which sort of pushed me over the edge to order the CLRs.

Sooooo....Last night I tried a different approach, using one CLR on the floor (BL), upside down with the pole cup facing upward, and used a speaker pole to mount the other CLR on the pole in FF mode. WOW! What a difference, even though I'm still auditioning in my living room. The coupling with the floor seems to have made quiet a difference in the general vibe I get for bass, much more "real" than both wedges on tripods in FF position. This resulted in my reducing the output from the AxeFx significantly since the perceived volume was so much louder and fuller. Sure, it's not my SVT 8x10, but hell yeah, I can't think of many situations where 2 CLRs in this configuration wouldn't do the trick. The FF cabinet allows me to hear while the BL cabinet allows me to "feel". Proof will be in the pudding at the gig tomorrow night. And talk about small footprint, efficient setup. =)
 
BBN said:
Where you playing this weekend?
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The iconic TJ Callahan's in Tewksbury (Friday)! LOL. :hopelessness: Been meaning to contact you about the CLRs, Jay. Haven't logged nearly enough time on these yet, but so far things sound promising.
 
Tommy Tequila said:
Hey - What was the verdict?

TT
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verdict is...

a single CLR in a small acoustic duo environment is a piece of cake. No worries or problems in the back line position...as expected. Bass into Zoom MS60-B for tuner, preamp, and chorus. Sounds great, no qualms, no problems. Same verdict with an "unplugged" acoustic gig (2 guitars, bass, drums played with bamboo brushes).

Now, the 2 CLRs in the full 5 piece electric rock band context were a bit more complicated and a mixed bag, and for a lot of reasons. Without boring you with too many details, let me just say that I was eventually able to get things sounding pretty good with the CLR, but IMO this had less to do with the CLRs than it did with the way I had the AxeFx preset tones set up. Honestly, this is a learning curve/user error situation. As we all know and appreciate, the best way to set up your tones is in the exact environment where they will be used. Once I appropriately tweaked the AxeFx, there was much happiness. It's just that I wasn't able to achieve this from the start of the gig, which was a drag. So, with some new found perspective on what this CLR rig actually sounds like on stage (as opposed to my living room, LOL), I'm looking forward to a much more consistent result next time out. My conclusion is thus a guarded "thumbs up" ... and stay tuned.

[I also urge you to take into account the original post with respect to my expectations and the varied usage scenarios for using the CLRs. I'm impressed enough with them that I'll be keeping them. They've satisfied or surpassed my expectations in every application so far, the only exception being that I still have work to do with using 2 CLRs as a bona-fide bass rig replacement for louder applications. The prognosis is still positive here, but I do need more time on them on the gig.]
 
pauly said:
Just out of interest - Has anyone tried just one wedge with a sib crossed at 80 hz? Seems that would be the same to transport, and the way to get really full range for a basss.

Pauly
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I will try exactly this during the week, and agree that this would probably be a bit more satisfying for bass guitar, to cover the sub frequencies that bassist may miss with just the CLR alone: the "pushing air" frequencies that we feel more than hear.
 
jimfist said:
I will try exactly this during the week, and agree that this would probably be a bit more satisfying for bass guitar, to cover the sub frequencies that bassist may miss with just the CLR alone: the "pushing air" frequencies that we feel more than hear.
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Curious....what is the advantage of FRFR for bass players? Especially if you were going to bring a sub and a CLR (seems like a lot of gear)
Seems like a decent 4x10 or even 2x10 bass cab (with a power amp) would get you the same results?
For guitar players, I feel the advantage is being able to use a large variety of IR's.
I'm just curious if Bass players use a variety of IR's?
I will fully admit, I am ignorant in regards to the variations that different bass cabs offer. Just wondering if there is enough variety (in IR's) that make using FRFR, valuable for bass?

(on a side note)
Jim,
Sean C. (who you know from his Mugsy days) is touring with the band Fight or Flight right now.
He's using the Axe II, into a Crown Macrotech, into an 8x10 Mesa Cab....totally bad ass.
 
Bass cabs sound very different depending on design & speakers used, just like guitar cabs. Finding the right cabs to go with the amp I use is everything! So far I have been very underwhelmed with what the Axe offers for bass but I did not get it for bass so no big deal. It would be nice if they would model some of the better amps like Glockenklang, Aguilar, Thunderfunk & some of the better cabs like Bergantino, Epifani etc.
 
As a multi-instrumentalist, I think it's cool to use the same rig, my Fractal + CLR rig, for guitar and bass.

It makes preset creation, equipment staging, packing / cartage, all similar.
 
barhrecords said:
As a multi-instrumentalist, I think it's cool to use the same rig, my Fractal + CLR rig, for guitar and bass.

It makes preset creation, equipment staging, packing / cartage, all similar.
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@BBN:

And add to that the fact that you can use the CLR wedges as FOH PA in a small venue, or as vocal monitors on stage. That is part of the appeal for me, also. For some gigs, I actually fly-in percussion parts and samples thru my bass rig. Having a bona fide full range speaker system does them much more justice compared to flying them into a bass rig. My considerations go beyond just bass guitar. Having 2 CLRs available allows me to decide whether to use one or two, and where to place them for maximum benefit. I can go with one as a vocal wedge, with one as a back line if I want, which is very cool.

Especially if you were going to bring a sub and a CLR (seems like a lot of gear)
Seems like a decent 4x10 or even 2x10 bass cab (with a power amp) would get you the same results?
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I'd prefer to carry 2 CLRs vs a 4x10, especially without setup/teardown help. Again, take placement and space considerations into account. In some circumstances, having two cabinets will allow me better placement and focus of bass sound. With a 4x10, typically it sets on the floor, adds a lot of bass coupling and stage vibration while blasting most of the sound past your legs. So then we elevate the cabinet, right? IMO that's just one more thing I'd rather not deal with. As for a 2x10 vs a CLR, IMO that is really a wash in terms of functionality as they both are small footprint. Again, I'd never be able to run vocals through a 2x10 or 4x10 if I wanted to, nor use them in a "PA on tripods" situation. At the very least, the CLR gives you much flexibility. The burning question is this: what compromise is made specifically for bass tone, if any? For me, in low volume environments, there is no compromise. I've yet to suss things out in louder environments, so that's a work in progress.
 
@ BBN:

For guitar players, I feel the advantage is being able to use a large variety of IR's.
I'm just curious if Bass players use a variety of IR's?
I will fully admit, I am ignorant in regards to the variations that different bass cabs offer. Just wondering if there is enough variety (in IR's) that make using FRFR, valuable for bass?
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though there are limited IR options for bass in the AxeFx, there are still lots of 3rd party offerings (Redwirez), and some of the "non-bass" cabinets actually can sound very good for bass. As for me, I let my needs and ears do the deciding. Bass is different than guitar in the respect that you don't necessarily NEED to have a cabinet IR in the signal chain in order to get a good bass sound. I use them sometimes, and other times I don't, and I've been satisfied with the results I've gotten each way, depending on the specificity of the tone I'm trying to create. Just like with guitar, especially in a studio monitoring environment, the impact of bass cabinet IRs is very apparent. Common practice is to blend direct feed bass with a mic'd cabinet, and sometimes an additional "grit" track. However, I've created some bass tones with the bass Cabinet IR providing most of the tone color, and really enjoyed the simplicity of it.

Here's a real world example of how I use different IRs in my rig. Cover band material can vary from R&B to metal these days. I'll go for a 15" speaker IR for Motown emulations and anything with that type of vibe. Later in the night, moving to hard rock and metal, I'll go to a 4x10 or 8x10 cab IR with more top end. For modern R&B, I'll not even use a cab IR sometimes, to keep the bass as full-ranged and "up front" as possible. I don't see FRFR and using IRs for bass any different than for guitar. The dilemma for me has ONLY BEEN the challenges presented in amplifying this via my stage rig (specifically, with respect to low bass note fundamentals), without giving me a hernia. LOL!
 
Thanks for all the insight Jim.....keep us posted on how your rig evolves.
Hoping I can sell my bass player on an Axe II rig at some point....
 
Jay, if I were touring like Sean, I'd probably do what he's done and use a power amp into an 8x10. Wish I were doing more gigs where it was appropriate, but oh we'll...slumming the local clubs these days. I fired up the Axefx with both CLRs again tonight and I do really like the way they sound. With my Sting Ray, sounds like a nice bass amp to me, and at healthy level.

btw, PM me if you have time to make noise. I've got time and would be glad to show you what I've been doing with my various setups.
 
Depending on how the kick drum is dialed in and if there are side fills for the kick, the free field setting with the CLR's off the floor really lets the bass / kick drum blend.
 
...update...

tried a single CLR with a powered Mackie 12" subwoofer DLM12S (by the way, a pretty impressive little compact sub), sub LPF at 90hz, and the CLR in FF mode.

THIS COMBINATION KICKED ASS! The sub made all the difference in the world IMO.

I'm not really surprised or disappointed that the CLR has limitations for bass guitar where high SPL sub-low frequencies are concerned. It really isn't designed for that type of usage. A ported 12" (which the CLR is not) can deliver better sub performance, but then again, likely at the expense of flat response (I'm guessing). For that matter, I've auditioned some pretty nice Markbass, GK, Mesa (walkabout scout) and SWR compact combos that have similar limitations, and they are ported and specifically designed for bass. I'm still very happy with my CLRs and will use them on bass for many shows, in addition to using them for stage monitors and small PA duties. They really are a fine sounding cabinet.

As for the Mackie sub, it really was able to hold together and go low at high SPL where the above mentioned bass amp combos failed by comparison. Wasn't even close, really. Evidently the onboard DSP limiting is very effective and inaudible when it kicks in, but at very, very loud volumes. Pairing the CLR with this sub allowed me to turn up loud, and tweak my sounds without having to worry about whether I would be over-taxing the CLR. And as far as I'm concerned, this is how it should be if it is going to be an effective bass rig.

For the moment, and until I log some more gig mileage on the CLRs, this is pretty much where I stand: one or two CLRs will get loud, and for some players and some situations be perfectly fine, no worries. IMO, pairing it with a worthy sub is what really puts it over the top. As always, JMHO and YMMV.

My GK1001RBII and two 15" coaxial bass cabs are now in serious jeopardy of collecting dust, and it's a really good sounding loud bass rig. We shall see.
 
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