Chinese guitar knock-offs... opinions?

I stayed out but here are my opinions on the matter. I'm not pointing any fingers or judging anyone; this is just my own personal opinion and how I deal with it. It's much like abortion; I am pro-choice, but I know that we would never have an abortion in my home. That's my personal values, but basically keeping them to my damn self. :)

1. If a company is not honest enough to put their own name on the guitar (regardless of design) then I wonder how much they care about how it is built. I own a Rondo guitar. It's one of the higher end models and it's great. If it had a fake headstock it would not sound or play better.

2. If a company is involved in counterfeiting you have to wonder about what other "business" practices they are involved in. There is a lot of nefarious stuff going on in this world and I don't want to be an unwitting participant.

3. This is probably the single biggest issue I have with the whole thing.....maybe 20 years ago you really didn't have a selection of good cheap guitars...they were all basically crap. There is no excuse for buying a cheap guitar and just not being honest about it's origin of manufacture or brand. There is absolutely nothing wrong with rocking the crap out of a cheap or budget guitar if you like it and those imported fakes are not going to be better than a good imported guitar on their absolute best day. Reward an honest company for delivering a great value to the customer and when you play it in front of others the honest company gets exposure and recognition.

And yeah, real Gibsons can take a bit of work to get right sometimes; I'm not making any excuse for that, but that doesn't make any of this kind of stuff kosher. Whether it's counterfeiting, theft of intellectual property, robbing someone with a gun and taking their money or whatever it's all dishonest regardless of whether you pay for said illegal service. I mean we all complain about a lack of jobs and stuff in this country, but when it comes down to spending our own cash we run to WalMart and buy the cheapest import crap we can get our hands on regardless of quality or impact. Now if someone makes and sells a competitive product and sells it cheaper then so be it, but at least it's honest.
 
^ This. ^

That said, none of my stratocaster types are Fenders... None were branded fender either, but still Fender[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif] used to subsidize lots of lawyers to protect that shape, so what we're seeing is is a watering down from using a copyrighted shape, which seems to have become acceptable, to "not having the brand".
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I bought some teles off of a friends son that her ex-husband had given to him. They are most obviously not Fenders, headstocks were butchered to vaguely resemble. But both had a Fender decal stuck on. Those wouldn't even fool a noob. I don't get the attraction of that. I'll be taking those decals off and make my own brand. Or just leave them off and call them " custom". ;)
 
shasha said:
I stayed out but here are my opinions on the matter. I'm not pointing any fingers or judging anyone; this is just my own personal opinion and how I deal with it. It's much like abortion; I am pro-choice, but I know that we would never have an abortion in my home. That's my personal values, but basically keeping them to my damn self. :)

1. If a company is not honest enough to put their own name on the guitar (regardless of design) then I wonder how much they care about how it is built. I own a Rondo guitar. It's one of the higher end models and it's great. If it had a fake headstock it would not sound or play better.

2. If a company is involved in counterfeiting you have to wonder about what other "business" practices they are involved in. There is a lot of nefarious stuff going on in this world and I don't want to be an unwitting participant.

3. This is probably the single biggest issue I have with the whole thing.....maybe 20 years ago you really didn't have a selection of good cheap guitars...they were all basically crap. There is no excuse for buying a cheap guitar and just not being honest about it's origin of manufacture or brand. There is absolutely nothing wrong with rocking the crap out of a cheap or budget guitar if you like it and those imported fakes are not going to be better than a good imported guitar on their absolute best day. Reward an honest company for delivering a great value to the customer and when you play it in front of others the honest company gets exposure and recognition.

And yeah, real Gibsons can take a bit of work to get right sometimes; I'm not making any excuse for that, but that doesn't make any of this kind of stuff kosher. Whether it's counterfeiting, theft of intellectual property, robbing someone with a gun and taking their money or whatever it's all dishonest regardless of whether you pay for said illegal service. I mean we all complain about a lack of jobs and stuff in this country, but when it comes down to spending our own cash we run to WalMart and buy the cheapest import crap we can get our hands on regardless of quality or impact. Now if someone makes and sells a competitive product and sells it cheaper then so be it, but at least it's honest.
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Well thought out post shasha, and definitely inline with my thoughts on... just about everything (including the abortion issue). Love my Agile LP-type guitar and my Warmoth Strats, but none of them are labeled to be anything other than what they are. Point #2 that you mention is another one that concerns me as well. It just doesn't sit right supporting that type of company. And of course your 3rd point. Nothing wrong with a cheap "copy" of a known brand these days, as long as the company can put there own brand and headstock on it and not put some more expensive label on it as if it gave the guitar more prestige or something. It certainly doesn't make it play or sound any better. There really are some decent quality instruments at a fair price and a lot of the Rondo and Agile stuff proves that. And they use their own brand and label.
 
Original poster here...

First, thanks to everyone for the civilised discussion. It has been very enlightening, with several very good points brought to the table. And special thanks for avoiding to take this thread to insult-hell - this is quite a feat, considering the sensitive nature of the topic. You guys just proved that the Fractal forum *can* sometimes remain civilized, even in disagreement.

There were a couple of personal learnings for me along the way:

- Many agree with my moral dilemma of having a "copy" become a counterfeit (by slapping on a Fake Gibson logo, for example). However, some builders leave the headstock blank (more noble) and some will even put on your personalized logo (cool).

- You take risks when you buy one of these. You could lose your money, or the guitar could be total garbage. But a few folks provided links on how not to get screwed if you decide to look into buying one (thanks!)

- One very interesting question that came up: why do they not put their own logos (and one very good answer: because nobody would buy one). But my opinion is that this is a repeat (at a much grander scale) of the evolution of Japanese technology from utter junk (and ridiculed) in the seventies, to high quality (and revered) nowadays. Back in the 70s, if you drove a toyota, you might as well have driven a lada. It took Japan a long time and a lot of work to gain customer trust and the reputation they now have. It will take China at least as long, but beware when they do - they could control commerce, if they wanted to (and if China doesn't collapse as a result of bad decisions). They *can* make excellent quality, but right now, it's tough to make sure you get that quality rather than junk. When they resolve that issue, they will be a fearsome commercial adversary.

So all in all, I'm less and less tempted to buy one (even with my own logo, as I can't even think of anything smart to put on there). Not because of any of the opinions expressed on this thread, just simply because I cooled down and thought about it some more. Right after I'd seen my brother's "Gibson", I was hot to get one. Now, not so much. First, I am not a Les Paul guy (I'm more of a strat guy). Second, I don't need another electric (have a Suhr and a Tom Anderson, plus a Fender Strat Ultra). And lastly, my natural tendency to avoid buying *anything* made in China prevails - not because the quality isn't there (it sometimes is), but just because I want to continue to encourage our own North-American industries to flourish or at least survive. Because if it dies, it will never revive.
 
BBN said:
Cover bands are duping people?
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Sorry, double post, but just to clear this up...

I think he's saying cover bands are 'duping' the original artists by not paying royalties (which, actually, I don't think apply in this case if we wanted to be technical about it), not that they're duping the audience, who obviously knows they're not at a G'n'R or AC/DC concert.
 
Dpoirier said:
So all in all, I'm less and less tempted to buy one (even with my own logo, as I can't even think of anything smart to put on there). Not because of any of the opinions expressed on this thread, just simply because I cooled down and thought about it some more. Right after I'd seen my brother's "Gibson", I was hot to get one. Now, not so much. First, I am not a Les Paul guy (I'm more of a strat guy). Second, I don't need another electric (have a Suhr and a Tom Anderson, plus a Fender Strat Ultra). And lastly, my natural tendency to avoid buying *anything* made in China prevails - not because the quality isn't there (it sometimes is), but just because I want to continue to encourage our own North-American industries to flourish or at least survive. Because if it dies, it will never revive.
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Great to hear and agreed that:
1) YOU DON'T NEED ANOTHER GUITAR WITH THAT LINEUP lol (even though you can NEVER have too many...)
&
2) 'Merica & Canadia! 8)

Sad news to Genghis & shasha though, this issue has nothing to do with stances on abortion regardless of beliefs.... But, I digress...
 
ibanezfreak4 said:
Great to hear and agreed that:
Sad news to Genghis & shasha though, this issue has nothing to do with stances on abortion regardless of beliefs.... But, I digress...
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Agreed, but I was more agreeing to the point that how one conducts one's own business does not always dictate telling others how they should.
 
Knuckles said:
I totally know what you mean.

I went to my favorite "Authentic" Chinese restaurant last night. Went to restroom to wash my hands and took a wrong turn , ended up in the kitchen. Couldn't believe my eyes, all the cooks were Hispanic.

Totally Duped. Wow, was I disappointed!
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Dude, that's weird- I recently went to my fave sushi restaurant (which is def authentic Japanese cuisine), took a peek in the kitchen on the way to the washroom and almost all the workers/cooks were Hispanic as well!

Something sospechoso is going on....
 
BBN said:
Cover bands are duping people?

Or are you saying the opposite?

Sorry, I didn't fully understand the post.
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No, two different statements in my post.
First one addresses the misused term "counterfeit".

Second implies that there are people out there that have developed a strong opinion against the purchasing of Chinese guitar knock-offs. But if they take a step back and look at themselves they may find that not only have they willingly purchased other knock-off products but they've maybe profited from other people's work. Example, the guitar player who denounces the purchase of a Chinese guitar knock-off yet that same guitar player has no problem making money in a bar playing other artists songs without an agreement in place or royalty payment.
 
Genghis said:
Agreed, but I was more agreeing to the point that how one conducts one's own business does not always dictate telling others how they should.
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And that was exactly my point. My personal values and moral decisions or whether I just like strawberry jam more than than grape jelly shouldn't entitle me to judge how other people think or to think that I have the right to tell them that they are wrong.

It was probably not the best analogy in the world, but I digress. And no, this discussion was absolutely not about abortion or anything like that and I would like to keep it that way. :)

To each his own. :encouragement:
 
Sixstring said:
I'm in the NO! camp, I just have a huge problem with someone blatantly ripping off someone else's idea's for profit.
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That is probably the most understandable argument against the manufacturing of copied products IMO.
The purchasing of said products does indeed promote the manufacturing.

So now I've come to a dilemma.
When/If my guitar arrives, and if it shows up as an excellent impersonation of a Slash ALP, is it still right to use it as a wall hanger in my home theatre? To mitigate, I'd make a point to let people know that its a piece of art. Decor. Another artists impression of the real deal. Or, am I forced to sacrifice this lamb by destroying a certain percentage of features that attempt to identify it as authentic. Such as, the logo, "made in usa" stamp, or other identifiable markings?
 
My definition of "counterfeit" , a guitar called gibson fender suhr, when its not

My definition of copy, a guitar that looks like a gibson, but its name is shmibson sangfang or wangdong, who cares, anyone can tell its not said brand

However if you really feel the need to own said counterfeit guitar, hey what can i do about it

Though my opinion of anyone that owns and wares a counterfeit ie fake Rolex will be unchanged
 
Owning a counterfeit guitar for the fun of it, is different i think in the end, ie if your going to hang it on the wall

As you say its art, and if you wanted a real one you buy a real one, nothing lost from the manufacturer, no harm done
 
Knuckles said:
I totally know what you mean.

I went to my favorite "Authentic" Chinese restaurant last night. Went to restroom to wash my hands and took a wrong turn , ended up in the kitchen. Couldn't believe my eyes, all the cooks were Hispanic.

Totally Duped. Wow, was I disappointed!
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Exactly. Maybe Gibson guitars should also say "MADE IN USA BY MEXICAN PEOPLE".
 
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