China

@Dr. Dipwad, well, said. I'm just emptily lamenting the state of affairs with my cheap imitation virtue. ;) There are forces and complexities far greater than me fretting from my first world abode while playing with my wonderful US-innovated, Chinese-manufactured musical toy.
 
Aaaaand there's another thing us dirty westeners have to do to manufacture things which I forgot to mention - Invent our own stuff!
 
China - 1.43 billion people, U.S. 328.2 million people... China is buying our food companies now (they bought Smithfield Foods). Also, they are educating their people here and have been caught stealing technology...at the same time, they are weaponizing islands. All we're asking for is a "Fair Trade"...somehow, I don't think they're going to honor trade deals when they let COVID loose on the World...

In all fairness, regarding those islands, your aircraft carriers are constantly cruising off the Chinese shores. I'd reckon that if some foreign navy considered hostile to the US was constantly cruising off the US shores you wouldn't be happy about it either. And that's all I will say in defense of China.

First, the government should have a plan and strategy to keep the production in the country. It should never depend on the patriotism of the individuals only.

Thing is, governments do not represent the best interests of their citizens, but those who have the best lobbies. And big businesses have very good lobbies. I reckon that those who should have represented the interests of the American (or European for that matter) work force, the unions, were napping on the job. And when they did sprang into action, like calling for a strike to protest against the closure of a plant it was the wrong action too late. They should have instead organized a very good lobby of their own calling for restrictions on outsourcing jobs.

I remember the transition from MIJ meaning cheap crap to meaning stuff made well at a slightly lower price. You must be in your 40s, I am guessing, if you missed that transition....

I'm 51, how old do you have to be? I know it used to stand for cheap ass crap, but as long as I remember MIJ stood for good quality for a good price. Better then anything made in the West, except for made in Germany. Because they, to this day, have an almost anal obsession for built quality. Which is why Germany to this day is one of the few Western countries with a healthy manufacturing industry.

Good article and info about why Apple can't bring manufacturing back to the US.

“In the U.S., you could have a meeting of tooling engineers and I’m not sure we could fill the room,” he said. “In China, you could fill multiple football fields.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/28/technology/iphones-apple-china-made.html

Maybe we should have told our universities to train more engineers, even heavily subsidize those studies, instead of gender studies degrees? And instead of focusing on more women in STEM, focus on getting more people in STEM PERIOD!

Right now, the point is moot though. Many people can't afford locally produced products. A family needs two incomes to enjoy a somewhat better lifestyle that a factory worker used to earn on his own for his family. Remove that second income and most families would fall out of the middle class into low income class. Here in the Netherlands one big shopping chain after the other has collapsed. Businesses that in some cases have been around since the early 20th century and have dominated the Dutch high street. And what has replaced them? New chains that sell cheap stuff, made in China. Those are the successful ones. Sure, people love a good deal, but if you could afford better, would you buy cheap made in China stuff?
 
If I live in Canada and have lots of National pride could I pay more to have one assembled in Canada....

I get folks in the US being all about “made in the USA”, but if you don’t live in the USA does it really matter to the rest of the world ?
 
If I live in Canada and have lots of National pride could I pay more to have one assembled in Canada....

I get folks in the US being all about “made in the USA”, but if you don’t live in the USA does it really matter to the rest of the world ?
The argument methinks should focus on industrial production capacity for all nations.
If someday there is a one world order, then it won’t matter...and I hope that doesn’t happen anytime soon.
 
Hmmm.
If I live in Canada and have lots of National pride could I pay more to have one assembled in Canada....

I get folks in the US being all about “made in the USA”, but if you don’t live in the USA does it really matter to the rest of the world ?

I think there are two separate issues, here, and we should probably dis-entangle them.

ISSUE #1: The Type Of Relationship Is Contingent On Behavior, Mutual Benefit, And Compatibility Of Values
If your country stands in a friendly relationship to another country, not merely as a short-term alliance-of-convenience (like that between the Allies and Stalin's Russia during WWII) but in recognition of a deep, long-term compatibility of values (like that between the U.S. and Canada, the U.K., etc.) then you should view their good as your good, provided it doesn't impose harsh costs on you in the process.

Specialization Among Friends: Speaking as an American, when Her Majesty's warships occasionally dock in Norfolk, VA, I don't view it as an invasion, but as some friendly visitors who'll convert a few pounds -- yes, I said pounds, a man can hope -- into dollars and while away some hours complaining about the quality of American beer before they leave. :p And I don't want any American brewers buying and taking over manufacturing my favorite English ales. (Too late. :rolleyes:) For some things, I don't mind buying British even if I pay more for it, if what I'm buying is their thing and they're good at it. And I wouldn't mind much if they totally owned the American market for certain products. I don't want Aston Martins made in Detroit. (Admittedly I couldn't afford one even if they were.) The point is: It's perfectly acceptable, given a genuine-and-deep friendship and respect, to have trade that "takes jobs" from your own citizens, in a small way, provided there's give and take, neither side abuses the privilege, and the end it merely creates a relationship in which each side specializes in different things.

Critical Industries: However, there are certain things each country needs the ability to manufacture on its own; or, at the very least, industries where one ought not be entirely dependent on one foreign provider which might, at some future time, turn hostile after a bad election. When things are critical to your survival, you must at least diversify your sources. I have total confidence in the good will of my Canadian neighbors, but I might be a little concerned if all our communications gear, all our electronics, all our rare-earth mineral resources, and all our pharmaceuticals were imports from Canada. If life turned into a South Park episode, or a hostile quasi-religious social movement arose in Canada which began smashing the statues of Lee, Lifeson, and Peart (you must have some statues of those guys, right, Canadians? If not, what're you waiting for? Get on it...!) and it gained political power and dominated the universities and looked likely to ideologically conquer the country, I'd be concerned that a hostile culture, however temporary, held my country's well-being by the throat. I'd want to diversify my pharmaceutical supply to include other countries.

Hostile Action and Incompatible Values: If I found out that British beer was made by slave-labor, or that the Canadians had been shamelessly stealing data and intellectual property from my country's universities and companies for years, or that all of Australia's military planning was focused on defeating my country's military, then the concerns described in the previous paragraph would be magnified. I would need to question whether the friendly relations between countries could still be described as friendly. And if I found that their understanding of human dignity and human rights was less like that of the real British and Canadians and Australians and French and Brazilians and so on, and more-closely resembled that of Stalinist Russia, I'd have to move the category-of-friendship between us out of the "genuine-and-deep" category and into the "short-term-alliance-of-convenience" category...at best.

ISSUE #2: Local Unemployment and Patriotic Pride
Even in a friendly relationship where the values-systems between two countries are compatible, it's possible for frictions to arise. If there were genuine competition between, oh, I dunno, Australian and American textile manufacturing industries, and the American ones were all going out-of-business leaving hundreds of thousands of people jobless and destroying towns, and the Australian ones were dominating the market, I might look for areas of give-and-take in the relationship to compensate, and find ways to slow down the destruction of the American industry and towns and livelihoods. This is because friendship needs to be, in some fashion, a win-win relationship, lest frictions cause the overall friendship to decay. Are the Aussies intentionally trying to destroy all my local industries? Or is this merely a consequence of a natural efficiency that geography gives them? Or is it a mix? How I respond will depend on such considerations.

Also, pride and love-of-country is a good, natural, fitting kind of thing, provided it doesn't change character from love-of-one's-countrymen (and one's country's natural distinctives) into hatred-of-the-other. I'm okay with a "Buy U.S.A." movement from Americans (why not?) but I don't want "protectionism" that punishes other countries trying to compete in the market, if those countries are my friends. My personal consumer choices (partly motivated by my relationship with my neighbors who work in Industry X) is one thing; large-scale government action is another. That should usually be saved for situations where the relationship is less-friendly. And if, frankly, American beer reminds me of the proverbial joke about "having sex in a canoe," then I may not care how many of my neighbors work for Anheuser-Busch!

That's it. Those are the things I wanted to untangle.

Applied to the China thing: It seems to me that there's a difference between "Buy U.S.A." as applied to pharmaceuticals and communications electronics, where the alternative is enriching the Chinese Communist Party, which has been behaving pretty much the way Communist Parties always behave; and, on the other hand, "Buy U.S.A." where the alternative is Samuel Smith Oatmeal Stout, or an Aston Martin, or, best of all, the collected works of G.K. Chesterton, C.S. Lewis, and J.R.R. Tolkien. (What is it with these heavily-initialed English authors?)

In the latter case, you're dealing with a deep friendship which ought to remain so, and which should allow for specialization of industry and trade provided that you don't hurt each other in the process and critical supplies remain diversified. In the former case, you're dealing with a shallow friendship, incompatible values, and a history of hostile action. It's not about "Buy U.S.A." in a jingoistic way (or even a sane love-of-country way). It's more about not selling a hostile dictator the rope he's planning to hang you with.

Hopefully that makes sense.
 
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Nice analysis, but did you have to go here?
a hostile quasi-religious social movement arose in Canada which began smashing the statues of Lee, Lifeson, and Peart (you must have some statues of those guys, right, Canadians?

O Canada, the tyranny! That would mark the beginning of the true End-Times for North America (and it's high rational ideals).
 
O Canada, the tyranny! That would mark the beginning of the true End-Times for North America (and it's high rational ideals).
Heh. That it would.

I maintain my customary respect, trust, comity, and goodwill towards my friends in the Great White North. That I encourage these good folks to establish fitting public recognition of Geddy, Alex, and Neil should be taken as a kind of neighborly, good-humoured suggestion. Ideally, their statues should be placed in a kind of colonnade with lovely stonework...perhaps an outdoor plaza of some kind, with a fountain? And call it "Lamneth Plaza?" :cool:
 
And humans with foresight created a great domed time-capsule with the Gilded Trio's Great Works sealed for 1000 years. A millennium after the failed experiment of the West and the collapse of the ecosystem, it opens itself revealing its treasures to the few straggling, regressed, brutish humans remaining on the planet. It shall be called Xanadu.
 
And humans with foresight created a great domed time-capsule with the Gilded Trio's Great Works sealed for 1000 years. A millennium after the failed experiment of the West and the collapse of the ecosystem, it opens itself revealing its treasures to the few straggling, regressed, brutish humans remaining on the planet. It shall be called Xanadu.
For some odd reason I read most of that to the melody of Closer to the Heart...
 
I'm not. I took his course.
Hmmm...that explains why the last 2 products I’ve purchased from you have been flawless.
I learned about him during a summer internship around 1990 with GE...and they could not emphasize enough
his impact. Then again they also made sure everyone in the company had a Franklin Day Planner. :)
 
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Hey, @FractalAudio,

I understand completely, vis-a-vis the lack of PCB, etc. manufacturing in the U.S.A., specifically.

I'm curious, though, about other non-U.S. alternatives to the LCSSA ...that is to say, to the Larger Communist Slave-State of Asia. (The Kim regime rules the SCSSA, the Smaller Communist Slave-State.)

Are there any decent electronics-manufacturing hubs in the ROC (Taiwan), Vietnam, Malaysia, etc.? Or, heck, Brazil, South Africa, or anywhere else? Or did LCSSA manage to crush them all out of existence (or before they could start) and become the monopoly manufacturer?

I'm not asking whether it's practical for you to move your manufacturing, y'know, tomorrow.

I'm just curious whether, after another 5-10 years of concerted effort to decouple the world economy from the kind of pricks that load Uighurs blindfolded onto cargo trains to ship them off to manufacturing-camps to make masks (yes, for those who haven't seen the news, that's a real thing), is it plausible that other countries could pick up a large part of the slack, even if not in the U.S.?

Or is electronics manufacturing utterly nonexistent except under the red flag? (Seems like a big honkin' oversight by every other country on the planet, if so!)

Can only speak for "my" part of the world. There are a number of very decent electronics manufacturer in Taiwan. One of my clients produces their stuff there. Probably not much in Vietnam or South East Asia other countries. Low end (price) manufacturing has already left China, eg clothing, shoes and other labor intence, low cost products. Infrastructure in those countries are in many cases massively undeveoped.
Taiwan would be roughly 10-15% more expensive than China, but they are also struggling to get workers. No issues with higher educated techs and engineering people but staff at the production and assembly line is hard. "My" factory has around 25% of their workers from Vietnam. They are a public listed company so they have the capacity to "import" workers. For smaller scale factories, once their older workers retire they simple will not be able to find local younger workers and would probably go out of business.

Companies that moving are usually conitnuing with their already develop product series in China (too much hazzle and cost to move), but new development could be in another country so over time those brands has moved out of China.

Cant speculate on those blindfolded loaded into train, but hardly face mask factories. More likely coal mine, paper or steel mills way up north or west under the rader of most media.
 
China - 1.43 billion people, U.S. 328.2 million people... China is buying our food companies now (they bought Smithfield Foods). Also, they are educating their people here and have been caught stealing technology...at the same time, they are weaponizing islands. All we're asking for is a "Fair Trade"...somehow, I don't think they're going to honor trade deals when they let COVID loose on the World...

China weaponizing islands? The US has weaponized entire nations, guerillas, militias, terrorist groups, killer drones, political opposition movements to overthrow foreign governments, and dictatorial regimes like KSA. Oil, weapons or rare earths are the big business. Offshoring doesn't bother the big fish.

Saying that China “let COVID loose in the world” is a frivolity
 
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Do folks living in China feel the same pride when they can buy nearly everything that says “made in China”, as we do in the US when we try to buy “made in the USA” stuff ?
 
Do folks living in China feel the same pride when they can buy nearly everything that says “made in China”, as we do in the US when we try to buy “made in the USA” stuff ?
They're probably just hoping their Made in Chinese roads don't get swallowed in a sinkhole or that their Made in China office building doesn't just collapse.
 
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