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"Cherub Rock" - Set-up suggestions

Kidmag

Member
Hi All - hoping for some ideas to try - I'm tapped out. My band covers Cherub Rock and I'm searching for the rhythm fuzz/overdriven sound. Obviously Smashing Pumpkins layers about 10 guitars when they recorded that song, and my band is a 3 piece. But I'm trying to get a big big sound, with the enough definition to hear the octave progressions under the fuzzy goodness that the ringing open E string leaves. With my AX8 I had a tweed style amp running into an american style 1x12 cab, hit in the front end by I believe maxed out blues driver pedal. Sounds ridiculous, but it did produce a nice balance of fuzzy with some cut/definition. Unfortunately I built that preset about 4 or 5 years ago and never really adjusted it. My AX8 sold so fast that I forgot to pull the set-up to try to copy to the FM3. My attempts to recreate that set-up have failed. My attempts at using the marshal style amps, Atomic/Cameron CCV/JCM800/Friedman amps have all failed. The Cameron is a cool sound / close but missing too much warm fuzziness. Maybe I can add a bit of that adding a second signal bypassing the amp and sending through a drive pedal +EQ directly into the cab?

Anyway - any ideas? Thoughts. Thanks
 

Kidmag

Member
I haven't tried that yet, but good idea. Might mess with two cabs, one closed back and one open back for more of a looser feel. Also going to mess with fatten via the haas method.
 
I'm interested to hear what people suggest. I love that song, but I hate fuzz. When I play it, I just use a high gain amp. It's not the same, but it's better than fighting with a fuzz pedal for me anyway.
 

pipboy90

New Member
I had good results with a big muff pedal into the clean channel of a Bogner Shiva with Marshall cabs, like the Brit 70s TV or G12T-75.
 

unix-guy

Legend!
Assuming you still have old backups of your AX8 you should be able to convert the preset from the backup into an FM3 preset using FracTool...

Not sure how well it will translate sound-wise... But there's a chance ;)
 

Jarick

Experienced
Does your bassist have a fuzz pedal with a clean blend? That's what I'd do in a 3-piece. Get the bassist to run a big fuzz bass alongside the clean tone and that will fill out the low end letting you focus on the melody.
 

DaveO

Experienced
My presets use Cooper Carter's version of the "Mimiq" Pitch block, which is discussed here: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/petrucci-rig-factory-preset-update-jpiic-and-mimiq.164040/
Looks cool, Im not using an Ax3 so wouldn't know, short echo can fatten things up, use to have the MXR Blue Face Pitch Transposer and the flanger units back in the early 80s used those settings all of the time really fattened up my live sound dont do it much anymore these days.
 

Poparad

Experienced
Does your bassist have a fuzz pedal with a clean blend? That's what I'd do in a 3-piece. Get the bassist to run a big fuzz bass alongside the clean tone and that will fill out the low end letting you focus on the melody.
The bass tone definitely goes a long way towards completing the sound. The original (non-remaster) recording has an absurd amount of low end in the mix. Like way more than I'd ever feel comfortable putting on a finished mix of my own, but somehow it works.

Also, sidenote, but "Cherub Rock" was the very first song I ever learned on guitar 22 years ago!
 

Kidmag

Member
Does your bassist have a fuzz pedal with a clean blend? That's what I'd do in a 3-piece. Get the bassist to run a big fuzz bass alongside the clean tone and that will fill out the low end letting you focus on the melody.

hmm. I'll have to check with him, I don't think he has such a pedal, but he is not shy about investing in gear so maybe that would be a good option to fill in the big warm fuzzy.

I've set up a preset with both the JCM800 and the Bogner Shiva clean noted above with the big muff pedal out front. Definite potential, but I really need to get to the studio and try at volume. Home volume never translates to live volume for me, also sometimes something sounds great one day, and then I don't love it the next - so not getting too excited, but I do appreciate the suggestions. I'll also be fattening with the haas method which I believe is basically the same as the slap back echo - as it uses the pitch block to plan short delays (20ms 40ms etc.) L and R and then mix in the primary signal to the middle.
 

Kidmag

Member
My presets use Cooper Carter's version of the "Mimiq" Pitch block, which is discussed here: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/petrucci-rig-factory-preset-update-jpiic-and-mimiq.164040/

Fuzzyoctaves - have you used the Mimiq block in the FM3? I remember reading that thread but wasn't sure anyone got it work translating from the AXE3 to the FM3. Being a 3 piece and always trying to sound as big as possible, I've been considering giving the Mimiq a try. Would be great to get 90% of the way there without the complexity of routing, cables, power, etc. etc.
 

fuzzyoctaves

Inspired
Fuzzyoctaves - have you used the Mimiq block in the FM3? I remember reading that thread but wasn't sure anyone got it work translating from the AXE3 to the FM3. Being a 3 piece and always trying to sound as big as possible, I've been considering giving the Mimiq a try. Would be great to get 90% of the way there without the complexity of routing, cables, power, etc. etc.
Sorry, I only have a III, but it should work in the FM3 as it just uses a pitch block. The other thing I used in my preset was the Enhancer block in Classic mode, which essentially adds a short delay to the R channel (1-20ms) - I think that would be lighter CPU usage than a Delay block. Both of these do thicken the sound quite a bit. The other key things that worked for me are adding a low in the mix path of pure Muff routed around the amp+cab and a lot of EQ matching to the isolated guitar track.
 

wulftone

New Member
But I'm trying to get a big big sound, with the enough definition to hear the octave progressions under the fuzzy goodness that the ringing open E string leaves.
So, the guitars don't actually let that low E ring during the rhythm, he mutes it when he plays the high notes. The bass is the only thing playing that low E the whole time. If you listen really carefully you'll hear it! That'll help a lot with the definition in the sound there.
 
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neale dunham

Inspired
I personally LOve that entire album and spent ages trying to re-create Corgan's tone.

The Closest I ever got was on the Clean Channel of a Mark 1 series Mesa/Boogie with the Channel Cranked.

Maybe try The USA PRE Clean or LD Green dialled back and that should get you there without the need for a fuzz.
 

Jarick

Experienced
Yeah the bass tone is huge on this album and song, more than needed. But so much of what we hear as being huge guitar tone may be bass guitar. And specifically this song, it's the open E and octave up on the A string. If you play that on a fuzz bass, that's going to give you the low end and fuzz, and then you can run a more standard gained up guitar amp focusing on melodies. Especially because a lot of fuzz will really cause all kinds of ring issues with more than a single note.
 

Kidmag

Member
I personally LOve that entire album and spent ages trying to re-create Corgan's tone.
I hear you there! Such a sick album, wish my band was up for another song from either Siamese Dream or Gish.

I got some good bedroom level tones last night with the simple Big Muff into a JCM800 with gain set very low, maybe 1.2 (I can't remember the cab, but its not vintage - modern H&K 4x12 I think). Setting the pitch block at detune, panned L / R with delays of ~16 and ~35 seconds and mix around 50% sounds pretty good - will be interested to see at volume... I appreciate the thoughts about adding fuzz to bass, but I'm slightly hesitant because in the past using dirt with the bass always had him coming up into my frequency range. But worth a try again I guess.
 

citytoburn

New Member
If you want to try to mimic the record equipment, he did replace the stock JCM-800 tubes with KT88s, but I don't know what other changes resulting amp setting adjustments (bias settings? transformer settings?) you would have to do. Also, the Big Muff is the Op Amp version, which may not be the version in the Fractal. He was running the muff on full gain settings into a pretty clean head (KT88 doesn't overdrive as quickly as EL-34) and using the muff tone to find the exact spot where things turn a certain color.

On the other hand, the band didn't use the Big Muff Live, you lose definition trying to make that sound work in a really loud setting. You could follow Billy's lead there and consider using a higher gain amp. Last tip if you're interested, for the solo he's using tape flange, which the fractal has a model for. I messed with starting a patch for SD songs but I haven't really finished. Also need a phaser set to really slow rate to get a lot of the lead sounds.
 
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