Charvel Pro Mod dk-24 tuning issues

unix-guy

unix-guy

Master of RTFM
Since I've talked to a couple others here (@Dale LeClaire, @nhgtrman) with the Charvel Pro Mod dk-24 that also had tuning issues, I figured I would share my experience and ultimate (as of today) solution for tuning stability).

The issue I was experiencing initially seemed to the guitar just would not remain in tune if I was bending or using the tremolo. I thought maybe the strings were binding on the nut or maybe the string trees.

On inspection, I couldn't find an indication that the strings were tight in the nut slots. No pinging, they moved smoothly, etc.

My other suspicion was the the trem was not returning to zero.

The problem was that I could get the guitar in tune and then play for a while and find some strings flat (they were very well stretched, so it was that). If I tuned back up and then happened to use the trem then things would go sharp.

I bought some lube and a SuperVee Mag Lok tremolo stabilizer to try and remedy both any sticking and also return the trem to the zero point.

After adjustment, things seemed a bit more stable but what I noticed after lots of testing was this: bending a string would cause the string to go flat... But if I did a quick slacking of the trem everything would be back in tune. Odd!

I bend strings all the time, so even though the trem dip fixed the tuning it was just not practical.

Another thought I had was that maybe the bridge posts were shifting.

I had looked before to see if this bridge (Gotoh 510) came with locking posts since the posts have holes down there middle. I couldn't confirm if it did... There are various sub-models and I couldn't find a clear answer. I tried various sizes Allen wrenches in the holes but nothing seemed to grab.

So today I decided to pull the trem off and see if the posts were the issue. With the bridge removed, the posts were definitely not "solid" - they had some slop.

I unscrewed one of the posts and was pleasantly surprised to see a black set screw protruding from the bottom! Got out my Allen wrenches and found the head is a 1.5mm and confirmed it was moving in and out of the bottom of the post.

Re-assembled everything, adjusted the bridge post height and then snugged down the locking set screws and tuned up. The tuning problem appears to be gone! So much better now :D

I don't think the Mag Lok makes much difference in the tuning stability BUT the big benefit is that it prevents any bridge sagging when bending strings, so the other strings don't go flat. Nice!

Hopefully this helps someone else down the road.
 
Tip to reduce chance of wear on 1.5 mm screw & wrench: don't use them for the actual snug turn. Just turn the locking screw until it makes contact, then snug with slight clockwise turn of main post. Similarly, begin future adjustments with counterclockwise turn of main post rather than locking screw.
 
jlynnb1 said:
have the same guitar, thankfully no such issues here
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Have you ever adjusted the bridge post height? It is possible that yours are already snugged down... Good to be aware that they are there, though. If they are locked you won't be able to lower the posts.
 
I have a problem with the G string on my Gotoh 510 bridge on my Suhr. It's got the bent steel style saddles and when I do bends on that string, it seems it moves laterally along the saddle. I still haven't quite figured out how to fix that problem so for now I just try to avoid doing any crazy bends on that string.
 
Kamil Kisiel said:
I have a problem with the G string on my Gotoh 510 bridge on my Suhr. It's got the bent steel style saddles and when I do bends on that string, it seems it moves laterally along the saddle. I still haven't quite figured out how to fix that problem so for now I just try to avoid doing any crazy bends on that string.
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Call John Suhr hes a great person and will help you resolve that...
 
@unix-guy I'll have to look into this, thanks! Are you able to keep everything going through the string tree now? I know when I got my replacement bridge that I mentioned in the other thread, it came with new posts. And when I removed the old bridge the posts were not seated to the same height in the body so one was in deep and threaded out, and the other wasn't all the way in. I guess I'll be pulling the bridge again :)
 
Dale LeClaire said:
@unix-guy I'll have to look into this, thanks! Are you able to keep everything going through the string tree now? I know when I got my replacement bridge that I mentioned in the other thread, it came with new posts. And when I removed the old bridge the posts were not seated to the same height in the body so one was in deep and threaded out, and the other wasn't all the way in. I guess I'll be pulling the bridge again :)
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Yes I am using the string trees. I didn't find anything that behaved differently with or without.
 
Ugh... I'm losing my mind.

Tonight this guitar will not stay in tune for anything! Not just going flat, either... :(

It's going to the shop this weekend. If it won't stay in tune it is just an expensive paperweight and I don't need one of those.
 
unix-guy said:
Ugh... I'm losing my mind.

Tonight this guitar will not stay in tune for anything! Not just going flat, either... :(

It's going to the shop this weekend. If it won't stay in tune it is just an expensive paperweight and I don't need one of those.
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Hmm, one thing that's common for all guitars, except Floyd Rose equipped ones are that if You are not able to lock string and saddle at the bridge like on Floyd rose, IT IS gonna go out of tune with heavy bending. Most people who doesn't play very agresive and doesn't bend strings more then 2 semitones won't have a problem. That's especially prominent on G and low E string because they are lowest tension ones.

Basically, if you tune guitar and make a heavy G string bend of, let's say 3-4 semitones - it's gonna go flat.
Now there's two options:

1. Depress tremolo bar and it's gonna go back in tune, "reseting" saddle and string position back in place.
2. Don't touch tremolo, and tune it up on the tuning peg which is gonna keep it in tune for all heavy bends, but as soon as you dive the tremolo bar, it's gonna go sharp :)

You can watch Jeff Beck live, and see how he depress quickly bar after some left hands bends, to be back in tune :)

There's was numerous talks about that, and pretty much all tremolo which are not able to lock the string and saddle at the bridge is gonna behave like this. I talk with people with Stratocasters and some says -"no, my stays perfectly in tune no matter what" but when I try it, after 2-3 heavy big g string bends it's out :)

Problem can be more or less present depending on saddle height, breaking angle, and string gauge.

You can find John Suhr talk about it, Guthrie Govan, etc..

That's why I went for Guthrie Govan Signature Charvel - no locking nut, but tremolo is vintage style Floyd rose without fine tuners, and it's only one that doesn't exhibit this problem when Bending and using whammy bar because you can lock string and saddle is locked in place.

Guthrie actually mentions how It's funny how there is soo many different types of tremolo system, but very few offer possibility to lock saddle and string in place, which I couldn't agree more.

Just my observations, and my 2 cents, of course :)
 
Igor Paspalj said:
Hmm, one thing that's common for all guitars, except Floyd Rose equipped ones are that if You are not able to lock string and saddle at the bridge like on Floyd rose, IT IS gonna go out of tune with heavy bending. Most people who doesn't play very agresive and doesn't bend strings more then 2 semitones won't have a problem. That's especially prominent on G and low E string because they are lowest tension ones.

Basically, if you tune guitar and make a heavy G string bend of, let's say 3-4 semitones - it's gonna go flat.
Now there's two options:

1. Depress tremolo bar and it's gonna go back in tune, "reseting" saddle and string position back in place.
2. Don't touch tremolo, and tune it up on the tuning peg which is gonna keep it in tune for all heavy bends, but as soon as you dive the tremolo bar, it's gonna go sharp :)

You can watch Jeff Beck live, and see how he depress quickly bar after some left hands bends, to be back in tune :)

There's was numerous talks about that, and pretty much all tremolo which are not able to lock the string and saddle at the bridge is gonna behave like this. I talk with people with Stratocasters and some says -"no, my stays perfectly in tune no matter what" but when I try it, after 2-3 heavy big g string bends it's out :)

Problem can be more or less present depending on saddle height, breaking angle, and string gauge.

You can find John Suhr talk about it, Guthrie Govan, etc..

That's why I went for Guthrie Govan Signature Charvel - no locking nut, but tremolo is vintage style Floyd rose without fine tuners, and it's only one that doesn't exhibit this problem when Bending and using whammy bar because you can lock string and saddle is locked in place.

Guthrie actually mentions how It's funny how there is soo many different types of tremolo system, but very few offer possibility to lock saddle and string in place, which I couldn't agree more.

Just my observations, and my 2 cents, of course :)
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Thanks... I am only doing typically bends of 1-2 semitones.

Wilkinson actually makes locking saddles that will fit the 510 and other bridges but they have been out of stock for a while.
 
unix-guy said:
Thanks... I am only doing typically bends of 1-2 semitones.

Wilkinson actually makes locking saddles that will fit the 510 and other bridges but they have been out of stock for a while.
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Yes, then guitar should keep tune just fine. I know about those saddles, they should definetley help, although stock setup should also be fine with 1-2 semitones bends. Maybe something else is wrong with tremolo or some another friction point on guitar.
 
Igor Paspalj said:
Yes, then guitar should keep tune just fine. I know about those saddles, they should definetley help, although stock setup should also be fine with 1-2 semitones bends. Maybe something else is wrong with tremolo or some another friction point on guitar.
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That's where my thinking is right now... I need to have someone check it out.
 
The whole "resetting" thing that @Igor Paspalj mentioned is fortunately a habit I already have, and I don't often do bends beyond 2-3 semi-tones or major whammy work (if I do, I have a Floyd guitar for that :)). A while back when my posts and knife edges were wearing out on my Ibanez Universe, the bridge wouldn't quite reset right. It would affect all the strings since the whole bridge was off, but until I could afford a new bridge, I developed the habit of the reset as it worked in that situation too.

When I first got the Charvel, much like @unix-guy is describing would lose the g string tuning with even a small flutter of the trem on a chord. Disappointing as the tone and playablity were/are awesome. I stuck with it and eventually noticed it was direction dependent... for example... if I last had moved the bar up, and tuned it, then dove, it would come in sharp. If I pull up to reset, everything was fine. The opposite would happen if I had last dove before tuning, then after a pull up it would go flat, and reset correctly with a dive. This indicated to me that is was/is a friction issue, especially since it only happens on one string. If the posts, or something with the whole bridge was off, then the lower strings should have been worse as they are more affected by bridge motion, but no... just the g.

So I've gone to lengths to get the friction reduced as much as possible. FST Block, skip using the string tree, copious lube at all string contact points etc. as I mentioned in the other post. now it's good 95% of the time. I've been tracking some lead with it recently and haven't had to retune mid session. I still do the reset thing just out of habit, and occasionally if I don't keep the nut lubed well enough, then it still sticks a bit so I guess it's a good habit to be in.
 
Dale LeClaire said:
The whole "resetting" thing that @Igor Paspalj mentioned is fortunately a habit I already have, and I don't often do bends beyond 2-3 semi-tones or major whammy work (if I do, I have a Floyd guitar for that :)). A while back when my posts and knife edges were wearing out on my Ibanez Universe, the bridge wouldn't quite reset right. It would affect all the strings since the whole bridge was off, but until I could afford a new bridge, I developed the habit of the reset as it worked in that situation too.

When I first got the Charvel, much like @unix-guy is describing would lose the g string tuning with even a small flutter of the trem on a chord. Disappointing as the tone and playablity were/are awesome. I stuck with it and eventually noticed it was direction dependent... for example... if I last had moved the bar up, and tuned it, then dove, it would come in sharp. If I pull up to reset, everything was fine. The opposite would happen if I had last dove before tuning, then after a pull up it would go flat, and reset correctly with a dive. This indicated to me that is was/is a friction issue, especially since it only happens on one string. If the posts, or something with the whole bridge was off, then the lower strings should have been worse as they are more affected by bridge motion, but no... just the g.

So I've gone to lengths to get the friction reduced as much as possible. FST Block, skip using the string tree, copious lube at all string contact points etc. as I mentioned in the other post. now it's good 95% of the time. I've been tracking some lead with it recently and haven't had to retune mid session. I still do the reset thing just out of habit, and occasionally if I don't keep the nut lubed well enough, then it still sticks a bit so I guess it's a good habit to be in.
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Yeah, frustrating.

I think my issue from last night was the Mag Lok. I had changed strings while working thru all the issues the night before. Overnight the strings "settled" a little bit so I needed to tighten the springs a smidge and that was fighting with the Mag Lok.

I removed it tonight and dialed everything back in. I'm back to just the G string having issues now...
 
unix-guy said:
Yeah, frustrating.

I think my issue from last night was the Mag Lok. I had changed strings while working thru all the issues the night before. Overnight the strings "settled" a little bit so I needed to tighten the springs a smidge and that was fighting with the Mag Lok.

I removed it tonight and dialed everything back in. I'm back to just the G string having issues now...
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Few things I also did to my guitars with non locking bridges which will greatly minimize the problem are:

-Changed real bone nut to TUSQXL selflubricating nut

-Lubing nut, top of the saddles or any other friction point (string tree) with Nut Sauce.

- Tty Not to overstretch the strings when changing them, and also try not to stretch them as most people do by pulling and jerking them away from the neck with your hand. Stretch them by ONLY Bending them the way that you are actually playing guitar, and with tremolo bar.

-If you have locking tuners, when locking string at the tuners - apply some tension even before you lock the tuners, so there's minimal slack on the tuning peg as possible.

Just some stuff that I experimented over the years and years, and it's working pretty well for all of my guitars, and I am really heavy bender and I am playing very aggressively.
 
Igor Paspalj said:
Few things I also did to my guitars with non locking bridges which will greatly minimize the problem are:

-Changed real bone nut to TUSQXL selflubricating nut

-Lubing nut, top of the saddles or any other friction point (string tree) with Nut Sauce.

- Tty Not to overstretch the strings when changing them, and also try not to stretch them as most people do by pulling and jerking them away from the neck with your hand. Stretch them by ONLY Bending them the way that you are actually playing guitar, and with tremolo bar.

-If you have locking tuners, when locking string at the tuners - apply some tension even before you lock the tuners, so there's minimal slack on the tuning peg as possible.

Just some stuff that I experimented over the years and years, and it's working pretty well for all of my guitars, and I am really heavy bender and I am playing very aggressively.
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The nut on these is TUSQ (not XL) but it's now well lubed.

String trees and saddles are lubed...

I used to always stretch by hand (smoothly, no jerking/yanking) but recently switched over to using the String Stretcha on the recommendation of Vai's tech Thomas Nordegg. It works really well and it's much quicker and more even than doing it by hand.

I'm fairly new to locking tuners (almost all my guitars are double locking systems) but had learned about putting tension on them when locking when I got my PRS.

All good advice though!
 
unix-guy said:
Thanks... I think I checked before but I'll double-check.
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Also check the end of tuner button itself and see if screws there are tight my at100s have those and sometimes get slack there so I had to tighten them there a bit and the ferrule nuts should be tight like a tiger also.. toight loike a tiger.. I notice they slipped tuning a bit due to those things but dont overtighten the tuner buttons just kinda snug is good but not where it hurts to tune they gotta move some but it helps to stop slipping.. everything helps.. also I dont know what bridges they use on parker fly guitars but Adrian Belew states you put fresh strings on daily and within a few minutes of initial tuning and playing they are in tune and stay in tune.. He demonstrated how much you can dive or pull up on those major 3rd ect and swears he has found THE guitar for him.. Im curious if those bridges are propriatery to the fly or not but cant find any info on them secret sauce..
 
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