Charvel Pro Mod dk-24 tuning issues

[FrankenStrat]

@unix-guy, could you have wear on your knife edges on the bridge?

Do you create a witness point at both the saddle and nut?

Are your saddles locked down securely? May seem silly I know, but after swapping a tremolo block one time, I had not snugged down the saddle retainer screw and every so often the string would suddenly go flat. Drove me nuts for a couple of hours until I realized the saddle had travelled as far forward as it could and it was this saddle slippage that had caused the detuning problem.

 

[ultima hombre]

@unix-guy, could you have wear on your knife edges on the bridge?

Do you create a witness point at both the saddle and nut?

Are your saddles locked down securely? May seem silly I know, but after swapping a tremolo block one time, I had not snugged down the saddle retainer screw and every so often the string would suddenly go flat. Drove me nuts for a couple of hours until I realized the saddle had travelled as far forward as it could and it was this saddle slippage that had caused the detuning problem.

Ive seen techs use lock tight there AFTER its staying in tune a tiny drop per screw should hold. I sometimes thing string retainers are part of that problem and Parker Flys you note have straight string pull to tuners no trees no friction to pull #. If the saddle screws themselves are moving and I used to use this stuff from radio shack precision lubricate it was in a pocket protector type applicator but that would stay put and not run all over the neck or fretboard so if ya did all the saddles under the strings it would not bind but rather glide.. I watched them setup guitars at Stevens in Austin and they could make stock strats stay in tune. That tech would even lube the springs where they were on claw and string saddles and nut and retainers.. Since it stayed where ya put it the friction points were all slick. But posts being not in right spot to begin with and or not leveled to stay in tune are maddening.. They seemed to like the two post type bridges and even removed 2 screws from bridge itself center screws leaving outside 4 and that seemed to help as well the claw was cocked tighter on the lo E side. So it pulled things back into tuning if you worked the bar alot or did alot of bends or both. also 3 to the tree where the springs were not straight in back but rather at angle to center lugs of the claw and the bottom part that hooked into block would be in normal positions outer edge and center just the other end was not at claw side those were side by side next to each other center leaving rest open. to pull to the center of the claw and keep bridge in correct location or block.. Trix that cost me alot to learn. I remember they might shim a post even to make it work for post type bridges.... Force them to behave and stay in tune ... im fresh out of 7500 dollars but id like to play that Adrian Belew Parker Fly. And put it through its paces...

 

[unix-guy]

@unix-guy, could you have wear on your knife edges on the bridge?

Do you create a witness point at both the saddle and nut?

Are your saddles locked down securely? May seem silly I know, but after swapping a tremolo block one time, I had not snugged down the saddle retainer screw and every so often the string would suddenly go flat. Drove me nuts for a couple of hours until I realized the saddle had travelled as far forward as it could and it was this saddle slippage that had caused the detuning problem.

I checked the knife edges and posts... No apparent issues. But this is a brand new guitar. It was shipped from Charvel directly to me via SamAsh at Vai Academy a few months ago. I removed it from the box and packaging myself... So I wouldn't expect any wear unless it was damaged from the factory.

This is a Gotoh 510 bridge. Not a locking system... The saddles do not lock in place.

Tell me more about this "witness point". I assume you marking the string?

 

[unix-guy]

On a related note I heard from Wilkinson that they expect to have the WLS130 locking saddles in stock around December.

 

[ultima hombre]

http://groomednoodlers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=997

Just depends how you want it to sound and feel.
Mostly feel.

I usually setup my trems to be flush with the body.

If you put 9s in there instead of 10s i would be led to believe that you would need less springs.
anyway.

If that were my guitar I would probably put a small piece of wood in the cavity and set it flush to the body. Because of the recess, i wouldnt want the trem to be set at such a high angle if setting flush, thats why the use for a piece of wood.

If you want a tighter feel but floating to pull up then put more springs in there and loosen the claw.
If you want a looser feel and to pull up then less springs and tighten the claw.
If you have a hard hitting right hand you will probably want more springs so that stuff doesnt go out of whack when you play.
More clips, less pics!

 

[ultima hombre]

http://groomednoodlers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=997

also this
https://www.stewmac.com/FretCalculator

 

[ultima hombre]

Q: are ya using 9s or 10s.. and can you post a pic of how it is now It appears more then one 510 bridge but you might be speaking of this....
One seems to sit and not move on two posts the other seems to be a flat plate with saddles like strat or tele moving sharp flat or for action.. Im adding these for reference..

 

[FrankenStrat]

I checked the knife edges and posts... No apparent issues. But this is a brand new guitar. It was shipped from Charvel directly to me via SamAsh at Vai Academy a few months ago. I removed it from the box and packaging myself... So I wouldn't expect any wear unless it was damaged from the factory.

This is a Gotoh 510 bridge. Not a locking system... The saddles do not lock in place.

Tell me more about this "witness point". I assume you marking the string?

When I am restringing, I get the guitar in tune then press down in front of each saddle and in front of the nut on each string. Gives the string “memory” of a shape and point to return to once tension is removed and reapplied.

 

[unix-guy]

http://groomednoodlers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=997

also this
https://www.stewmac.com/FretCalculator

Sorry... I'm not following you at all. What does a fret calculator have to do with this?

 

[unix-guy]

Q: are ya using 9s or 10s.. and can you post a pic of how it is now It appears more then one 510 bridge but you might be speaking of this....
One seems to sit and not move on two posts the other seems to be a flat plate with saddles like strat or tele moving sharp flat or for action.. Im adding these for reference..

It's a 2 point floating tremolo.

https://g-gotoh.com/international/product/ns510t-fe1.html

I believe it's the 510TS

 

[unix-guy]

When I am restringing, I get the guitar in tune then press down in front of each saddle and in front of the nut on each string. Gives the string “memory” of a shape and point to return to once tension is removed and reapplied.

Interesting... I will give this a shot.

 

[ultima hombre]

When I am restringing, I get the guitar in tune then press down in front of each saddle and in front of the nut on each string. Gives the string “memory” of a shape and point to return to once tension is removed and reapplied.

I was watching Chris Duarte string his guitars one day and he would tune to pitch then go 1234 on lo e and fretting from each fret holding finger down he would reach over string and grab string with right hand and work the string back and forth and stretching it pretty good each way ...
You do this on each string all the way up to end fretboard and then go back and re tune to pitch and work the bar if you have one each way and it will settle in if stop tail or fixed bridge your done after stretching.. Regardless his thought was you make hands and fingers stronger and you stretch the string from every fret up towards bridge. So when I re string I always do that with clean hands and then wipe the strings down and usually it settles into tune. That works for any guitar with any bridge and wipe them down and wash hands again before playing them back in some.. He showed me that and I just always did that and the other day I saw a show with some tips.. He was showing how to loop back under and lock at tuner peg and cut off string and it locks the string to stop slippage. So id seen up wrapping and seen going through peg hole twice and wrapping in a stack up or down and one over the rest under but never saw this way of doing it.. Also this trick which can be used on any tuner locking or not and use it on both just cause but you puil string taught where allway into block and you have some slack yet to wind up and some already out the other side of tuner you can take string there past post and bend it at sharp angle and it bends and does this lock break where if you do it under pressure pulling string with right hand and holding other side of peg with left and bending string it bends the string and locks it and you can literally hold it and let go of left hand and it will sit there I dont suggest that but it works so well at that sharp angle bend it holds from that side till you wind peg tight while holding string taught. That keeps string winding up or down post and you can still do the bend back over top lock on other side after that going on round peg once more and up and under and back over. That was on Rhet Shulls page on you tube he visits Dave Oranatos<SP> shop ..
I attack them from all angles to make them behave.. might be strings not properly stretched and if you over stretch to begin with as mentioned it works them both ways up and down stretching from every fret so they are really stretched if you think about it 24 times in my case, By the time you do 2 octaves they are fully stretched...

 

[ultima hombre]

Sorry... I'm not following you at all. What does a fret calculator have to do with this?

I did not know which bridge you had they showed several versions of what you mentioned but it inferred where the studs were to be located to hold the bridge so you could measure and double check yours in case factory mistake..
If they drilled one peg hole in wrong spot that might cause issue tuning wise throw it off..
The measurements were located in those diagrams for you to see where the bridge is supposed to be and it listed several bridges so you could locate yours and see if the pegs were located in correct spots.. you can measure from the blue print or initial design to see if its correct.
I know Gibson had made gold tops up till 53 already and had some issues both neck angle and stud location on bridges and I think they corrected that by 54 or 55 for certain both issues were resolved but that stud location being wrong caused tuning issues... Its the same type thing on two posts if they are not in right spot the guitar wont intonate. You can calculate where the bridge is supposed to be and where post holes should be and line things up and measure from last fret and check your guitar post placements and measure to center of post to last fret....
The bridge placement is off the scale of the neck sir.. if they get it wrong or one peg hole is a sliver off it wont intonate...
usually ive seen that then compensated by an allen screw to offset one side till it corrected..That screw came out and touched post to push back further if post was off.. So they had some wiggle room. I used to build guitars once upon a time in Texas..........
In something like a set neck you glue neck in first then locate bridge and measure 3 times. But the saddles would be the saving grace there.. thats the rest of the wiggle room but if those are set and dont move and posts dont either then its CRUCIAL where the posts holes were drilled.
everything today is cnc so I doubt its that I did things the hard way till I knew better..

 

[FrankenStrat]

I was watching Chris Duarte string his guitars one day and he would tune to pitch then go 1234 on lo e and fretting from each fret holding finger down he would reach over string and grab string with right hand and work the string back and forth and stretching it pretty good each way ...
You do this on each string all the way up to end fretboard and then go back and re tune to pitch and work the bar if you have one each way and it will settle in if stop tail or fixed bridge your done after stretching.. Regardless his thought was you make hands and fingers stronger and you stretch the string from every fret up towards bridge. So when I re string I always do that with clean hands and then wipe the strings down and usually it settles into tune. That works for any guitar with any bridge and wipe them down and wash hands again before playing them back in some.. He showed me that and I just always did that and the other day I saw a show with some tips.. He was showing how to loop back under and lock at tuner peg and cut off string and it locks the string to stop slippage. So id seen up wrapping and seen going through peg hole twice and wrapping in a stack up or down and one over the rest under but never saw this way of doing it.. Also this trick which can be used on any tuner locking or not and use it on both just cause but you puil string taught where allway into block and you have some slack yet to wind up and some already out the other side of tuner you can take string there past post and bend it at sharp angle and it bends and does this lock break where if you do it under pressure pulling string with right hand and holding other side of peg with left and bending string it bends the string and locks it and you can literally hold it and let go of left hand and it will sit there I dont suggest that but it works so well at that sharp angle bend it holds from that side till you wind peg tight while holding string taught. That keeps string winding up or down post and you can still do the bend back over top lock on other side after that going on round peg once more and up and under and back over. That was on Rhet Shulls page on you tube he visits Dave Oranatos<SP> shop ..
I attack them from all angles to make them behave.. might be strings not properly stretched and if you over stretch to begin with as mentioned it works them both ways up and down stretching from every fret so they are really stretched if you think about it 24 times in my case, By the time you do 2 octaves they are fully stretched...

If you want to break this down into smaller, more digestable paragraphs, be happy to read it. But I cannot navigate this wall of text.

 

[ultima hombre]

If you want to break this down into smaller, more digestable paragraphs, be happy to read it. But I cannot navigate this wall of text.

Relax and dont bother reading it you wont understand it anyway...

 

[FrankenStrat]

Relax and dont bother reading it you wont understand it anyway...

Nice. Piss off

Congrats you are the second recipient of my Ignore List award!

 

[unix-guy]

Also this trick which can be used on any tuner locking or not

This would completely eliminate the point of locking tuners, in my opinion. You don't need or actually want a wrap on the post as the locking mechanism does that.

if they get it wrong or one peg hole is a sliver off it wont intonate...

Any modern bridge has adjustable saddles. For it to not intonate it would require being waaay off.

The guitar intonates fine. It tunes fine. It just goes slightly flat on the top 4 strings when bending. It comes back to pitch after dipping the bar.

 

[FrankenStrat]

The guitar intonates fine. It tunes fine. It just goes slightly flat on the top 4 strings when bending. It comes back to pitch after dipping the bar.

Witness points might help. BTW, I got the tip on witness points from none other than John Suhr. Need to do it on fresh strings.

Have you checked your nut to make sure it is burr free and slotted properly? Same for the saddles.

Also Charvel Pro Mods have the Fender style headstock, which is not angled. You need to use a string tree to get the correct break angle from the nut to the tuners.

John has talked quite a bit on TGP about this type of issue. He focuses a lot on the G string as being particularly susceptible to this problem. He says he has observed this under a microscope (literally) and the problem is the string not reseating itself where is previously was. Here is a link to one of John’s posts on a thread which is titled “The fatal flaw with floating tremolos”: https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/27813640/

His description here is exactly what you are describing: https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/27778000/

Here is another thread that he has a couple of posts in on the topic: https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/26907340/

And another... https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/11697454/

And another... https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/9765301/

 

[ultima hombre]

Im crushed ive made it to another ignore list how shall I go on ?

 

[unix-guy]

Witness points might help. BTW, I got the tip on witness points from none other than John Suhr. Need to do it on fresh strings.

Yeah... I literally never heard of witness points before you mentioned it.

Have you checked your nut to make sure it is burr free and slotted properly? Same for the saddles.

As far as I can tell they are ok... I can't see or feel anything that is apparent.

Also Charvel Pro Mods have the Fender style headstock, which is not angled. You need to use a string tree to get the correct break angle from the nut to the tuners.

Check. There is string tree for the D&G and another for the B&E.

Interestingly, the low E and A strings seem pretty stable.

John has talked quite a bit on TGP about this type of issue. He focuses a lot on the G string as being particularly susceptible to this problem. He says he has observed this under a microscope (literally) and the problem is the string not reseating itself where is previously was. Here is a link to one of John’s posts on a thread which is titled “The fatal flaw with floating tremolos”: https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/27813640/

His description here is exactly what you are describing: https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/27778000/

Here is another thread that he has a couple of posts in on the topic: https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/26907340/

And another... https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/11697454/

And another... https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/9765301/

I will take a look - did a bit of reading on witness points at lunch today.

The G is definitely the worst offender but all 4 top strings do exhibit the behavior.

Edit:

Skimmed the 1st thread... Watched the video and read the posts from Suhr. Funny that the thread was started by @atquinn

Also... As @Igor Paspalj and the video talk about it, this is happening only with big bends. My experience so far is that it occurs with only a full step bend.

But promising that John says the locking saddles are the closest solution and I plan on getting them.