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Challenging Bogner tone by G3 guitarist in Japanese band

Hitoshi Kato

Inspired
Hi,

This is one of my favorite band in the world, and the guitarist was invited G3 show, Daita.

Of course he is an amazing guitar player and he did the recording for this song by Bogner Ecstasy Blue channel with low gain settings.

He also said he used Bogner 2x12 cab, shure 57 and 421 mic settings, and added some delay only.

I tried the tone, but especially palm mute sound was much more fatter than his tone.
Does someone have the good idea to replicate this song’s guitar tone with Bogner Blue channel?

P.S.
His guitar is very similar to Tom Anderson Guitar with H3 pickups.

Thanks in advance
 

chris

Legend!
this is double tracked and mixed, so there could be any number of EQ and other changes that we're hearing compared to the amp itself.

you can increase the Low Cut in the Cab block to get rid of some low end and that might get you in the right direction.
 

Hitoshi Kato

Inspired
this is double tracked and mixed, so there could be any number of EQ and other changes that we're hearing compared to the amp itself.

you can increase the Low Cut in the Cab block to get rid of some low end and that might get you in the right direction.
Thanks for the advice.
If I do too much low cut, then the sound is too thin.
That’s why I can’t do that.
Do you like his tone btw?
 

Hitoshi Kato

Inspired
This is not just a "low gain" Ecstasy Blue channel... As Chris writes, this sounds like it's heavily processed.
Understood.
But before the process, what do you think about the original tone settings?
Or can we reproduce this tone in Axe Fx III?
 

jlynnb1

Fractal Fanatic
what everyone is saying is that it's incredibly hard to get a single guitar tone to sound like mixed/mastered/processed/multi-tracked guitar tone. Nothing about the tone is especially remarkable or different than any other mid gain marshallish tone I've ever heard.

If the low cut is taking too much, take less low cut.

Bogner's can be pretty dark amps with everything at noon, don't be afraid to move the knobs. there's also the cut switch in the amp block, maybe your guitar has more low end and is pushing the amp/Axe differently there. Cut Switch is helpful there.
 

RevDrucifer

Experienced
While it may sound "thin" when backing off the bass in your AxeFX, you're comparing it to a mix and mastered album where other instruments are making up for the lack of bass in the guitar. Right when the distorted guitars start in the intro of that song, they're joined with the bass and the toms, which is where 90% of the low end is coming from, if not more.

I bring this up a lot in the discussion of guitar tones, because albums tend to be smoke and mirrors to an extent. Then add in guitarists language with stuff like "big fat guitars" or "super heavy tone", "deep, tight bass response", etc. It all makes for a very confusing perspective on what is actually happening on records and how guitars are actually mixed. Spend 15-20 minutes digging through these vids, listen on some decent speakers/headphones. There are a few out there (like Van Halen) where the guitars are pretty spot on with what's going on on the album, the more modern you get, the more you hear the bass/drums doing all the low-end work and the guitars staying in their mid/high zone.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=isolated+guitar+track
 

skunc

Experienced
While it may sound "thin" when backing off the bass in your AxeFX, you're comparing it to a mix and mastered album where other instruments are making up for the lack of bass in the guitar. Right when the distorted guitars start in the intro of that song, they're joined with the bass and the toms, which is where 90% of the low end is coming from, if not more.

I bring this up a lot in the discussion of guitar tones, because albums tend to be smoke and mirrors to an extent. Then add in guitarists language with stuff like "big fat guitars" or "super heavy tone", "deep, tight bass response", etc. It all makes for a very confusing perspective on what is actually happening on records and how guitars are actually mixed. Spend 15-20 minutes digging through these vids, listen on some decent speakers/headphones. There are a few out there (like Van Halen) where the guitars are pretty spot on with what's going on on the album, the more modern you get, the more you hear the bass/drums doing all the low-end work and the guitars staying in their mid/high zone.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=isolated+guitar+track
So true.
The more you have happening in a mix the less space each instrumental "voice" has to occupy. If your instrument competes with the vocal range of the singer- your EQ will be altered to accommodate the singer when there are guitar and vocals together. The other immediate consideration is the low end of the song and keeping the bass guitar/synths and drums clear from conflicting with the guitar.
Frequencies that matter for guitar are predominantly in the upper midrange and surprisingly go as high as 7k. If your gain set to match the original and you are able to get those particular frequencies dialed in you will get very close. Then bring in the lows to match your particular application. If you are recording you'll be close already. If you want this to be a live sound to play in a band you might want to warm up the low end.
Matching a pop guitar from a record will not sound gratifying in most situations, BUT, if everyone in your band matches the sound of all the original tracks you could sound like the music from original recording.
 

Hitoshi Kato

Inspired
what everyone is saying is that it's incredibly hard to get a single guitar tone to sound like mixed/mastered/processed/multi-tracked guitar tone. Nothing about the tone is especially remarkable or different than any other mid gain marshallish tone I've ever heard.

If the low cut is taking too much, take less low cut.

Bogner's can be pretty dark amps with everything at noon, don't be afraid to move the knobs. there's also the cut switch in the amp block, maybe your guitar has more low end and is pushing the amp/Axe differently there. Cut Switch is helpful there.
Ok I understood.
However I strongly believe AXE FX III can produce the preset which includes any type of post processing, then I thought recording this tone is also not very difficult.

I personally believe AXE FX III is very powerful also as the external effect processor even for the keyboard.

For Bogner, yes I usually put Bass below 1.5, and use low-cut swias well thanks to the explanation on Yek’s write up.
 

Hitoshi Kato

Inspired
While it may sound "thin" when backing off the bass in your AxeFX, you're comparing it to a mix and mastered album where other instruments are making up for the lack of bass in the guitar. Right when the distorted guitars start in the intro of that song, they're joined with the bass and the toms, which is where 90% of the low end is coming from, if not more.

I bring this up a lot in the discussion of guitar tones, because albums tend to be smoke and mirrors to an extent. Then add in guitarists language with stuff like "big fat guitars" or "super heavy tone", "deep, tight bass response", etc. It all makes for a very confusing perspective on what is actually happening on records and how guitars are actually mixed. Spend 15-20 minutes digging through these vids, listen on some decent speakers/headphones. There are a few out there (like Van Halen) where the guitars are pretty spot on with what's going on on the album, the more modern you get, the more you hear the bass/drums doing all the low-end work and the guitars staying in their mid/high zone.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=isolated+guitar+track
I used to do Tone Match with these guitar stem.
And when I play with those Tone Match blocks, I always feel ‘this sound is too bright to avoid noise’.
At that time, I understood the guitar sound in mixing was different from amp sound.

However, the guitar sound in the link in my 1st post has too less low end despite Bogner Amp and Bogner cab.

What I am afraid to do is, if I do too much low cut, the guitar sound could be too thin.
The low cut point is very difficult to find.
 

RevDrucifer

Experienced
I used to do Tone Match with these guitar stem.
And when I play with those Tone Match blocks, I always feel ‘this sound is too bright to avoid noise’.
At that time, I understood the guitar sound in mixing was different from amp sound.

However, the guitar sound in the link in my 1st post has too less low end despite Bogner Amp and Bogner cab.

What I am afraid to do is, if I do too much low cut, the guitar sound could be too thin.
The low cut point is very difficult to find.

It’s tricky to find on it’s own, but with a bass in the mix, you could find it pretty quick.

Are you going to be recording with it or just jamming? Either way, nothing is set in stone. Even if you record the guitars with too much bass, it can always be dialed back in the mixing phase.
 

skunc

Experienced
I used to do Tone Match with these guitar stem.
And when I play with those Tone Match blocks, I always feel ‘this sound is too bright to avoid noise’.
At that time, I understood the guitar sound in mixing was different from amp sound.

However, the guitar sound in the link in my 1st post has too less low end despite Bogner Amp and Bogner cab.

What I am afraid to do is, if I do too much low cut, the guitar sound could be too thin.
The low cut point is very difficult to find.
You can make some tone adjustments in the tone match block. AMOUNT and SMOOTHING.

I would recommend you take some time and make your TM chain sound good.
then, in the next row build the duplicate amp with a cab. Set a looper to feed both amp chains. Alternate amp cab and amp TM sections via Scenes and hone the amp/cab row until it works for your situation. You really don’t want to be tied to a TM/IR Player if you can help it.
 
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FullThrottle64

Inspired
This is one of my favorite band in the world, and the guitarist was invited G3 show, Daita.


Of course he is an amazing guitar player and he did the recording for this song by Bogner Ecstasy Blue channel with low gain settings.

He also said he used Bogner 2x12 cab, shure 57 and 421 mic settings, and added some delay only.
Great stuff - I wasn't familiar with this player before, so thanks for sharing this.

While some research shows that he tours with the Bogner XTC, are you sure that he was actually using it for this song? The video appears to show him plugged into a Marshall JVM.
 
Hi,

This is one of my favorite band in the world, and the guitarist was invited G3 show, Daita.

Of course he is an amazing guitar player and he did the recording for this song by Bogner Ecstasy Blue channel with low gain settings.

He also said he used Bogner 2x12 cab, shure 57 and 421 mic settings, and added some delay only.

I tried the tone, but especially palm mute sound was much more fatter than his tone.
Does someone have the good idea to replicate this song’s guitar tone with Bogner Blue channel?

P.S.
His guitar is very similar to Tom Anderson Guitar with H3 pickups.

Thanks in advance
In a studio setting, sure, he used Bogner 2x12 cab, shure 57 and 421 mic. But now, keep in mind that those mics are going through something. Whether they're going through Neve preamps, or API, or the SSL board, all of that adds color JUST running through it. Now, the engineer will sit there and EQ/Compress/Saturate the tone from the board or preamp. So at this point, you're not just listening to the Bogner amp/cab/mics. Now add to that, that that's probably how they RECORDED, but once it's send out to mix, the guitar goes through even more processing. More EQ, more compressor, more saturation... Engineers even re-amp and already amped signal just to get a desired effect.

All this to say, that whenever your guitar tone doesnt sound like a reference track, and you feel you're using the same amp and cab, there's usually more to it.

Dial the rig as best you can, then ask yourself, what's different from his tone and yours?

The body is different? Adjust 100hz-200hz
Is it boxy or hollow? Adjust 300hz-600hz.
The "punch" is different? Adjust around 1K
The bite is different? Adjust 3K-6K.
The "hair" is different? Adjust the 8K-12K.

If you can find words to describe in your mind what the tone is lacking, try to match that to a frequency.
 

Hitoshi Kato

Inspired
It’s tricky to find on it’s own, but with a bass in the mix, you could find it pretty quick.

Are you going to be recording with it or just jamming? Either way, nothing is set in stone. Even if you record the guitars with too much bass, it can always be dialed back in the mixing phase.
Both, jamming and recording.
I usually do my mix then I know low cut for guitar is a must post processing.
However, if I do too much, the guitar sound is too thin.
For the song of the link, I understand the low cut happened, but according to his palm mute sound, maybe many amounts.

Do you use different presets for jamming and recording?
 

Hitoshi Kato

Inspired
Great stuff - I wasn't familiar with this player before, so thanks for sharing this.

While some research shows that he tours with the Bogner XTC, are you sure that he was actually using it for this song? The video appears to show him plugged into a Marshall JVM.
He said in the interview that he used Bogner XTC for this song despite he is a famous Triaxis user.
Maybe JVM is only for this MV.
 

Hitoshi Kato

Inspired
The AxeIII can do most anything, what it can't do is make one guitar sound like multi-tracked mixed/mastered guitars
Yes I used to think so, but if I use 1 amp block and 2 cab blocks with 2 IRs, then each IRs go to L85 and R85, we can make stereo guitar track, correct?
 
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