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Celestion F12-X200

Justincase

Experienced
Interesting! I just had an email back from the guys at Zilla I asked them which wire connected to which terminal on the speaker. They said the black one is positive and the blue one is negative. I remember opening up the cab yesterday and the black cable wasn't on the positive terminal. they were swapped. Would that make a difference?
I have no idea...can't hurt to correct it. I think it would reverse phase. Here's a thread you should read...
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/celestion-f12-x200.138674/

Been looking for the thing I read about first run defects but can't find it. However, even the fractal admin says these require a powerful SS amp in one of the posts.
 

JiveTurkey

Experienced
Fyi "Dr. Decibel" of Celestion and I conversed in Jan of 2020 as I asked him the same thing and he said all the F12s that were out in the wild were good. So not sure where that rumor started.
 

666was999

Power User
However, even the fractal admin says these require a powerful SS amp in one of the posts.
I don't think so. It seems as effective to me like a guitar speaker. Like you can play gigs with a 20w amp and a vintage 30 loaded cab I'd say the F12-X200 plays in the same league. A 20w poweramp should be enough to play it next to an average loud drummer.
 

Paulg2uk

Power User
Fyi "Dr. Decibel" of Celestion and I conversed in Jan of 2020 as I asked him the same thing and he said all the F12s that were out in the wild were good. So not sure where that rumor started.
This one could be pre Jan 2020 I suppose. What I don't get is why the speaker isn't distorting when I play an audio track through it. Only when my guitar is plugged into it. I think I'm gonna have to record what I'm hearing and upload it so you guys can check it out. I'm gigging over the weekend so I'll grab the old trusty SM57 from my bands lockup and mic the cab up.
 

TSJMajesty

Power User
This one could be pre Jan 2020 I suppose. What I don't get is why the speaker isn't distorting when I play an audio track through it. Only when my guitar is plugged into it. I think I'm gonna have to record what I'm hearing and upload it so you guys can check it out. I'm gigging over the weekend so I'll grab the old trusty SM57 from my bands lockup and mic the cab up.
Man, that's a head scratcher for sure. Making me want to take these new speakers and put them into one of my 4x12 cabs just to hear them, since it'll be at least a few weeks before I can get my new cabs built.

I did go back and re-read several pages of posts in this thread, and the general consensus seems to be, if you install these speakers into the correct cab (as close to Celestion's specs as possible, definitely closed-back, and with a port), they sound fantastic.
 

JiveTurkey

Experienced
This one could be pre Jan 2020 I suppose. What I don't get is why the speaker isn't distorting when I play an audio track through it. Only when my guitar is plugged into it. I think I'm gonna have to record what I'm hearing and upload it so you guys can check it out. I'm gigging over the weekend so I'll grab the old trusty SM57 from my bands lockup and mic the cab up.
He meant all the F12s that were released. Interested to hear your clips. They do Have a LOT of treble content and seem very power amp dependant.
 

Justincase

Experienced
I don't think so. It seems as effective to me like a guitar speaker. Like you can play gigs with a 20w amp and a vintage 30 loaded cab I'd say the F12-X200 plays in the same league. A 20w poweramp should be enough to play it next to an average loud drummer.
I'm pretty sure these are closer to a 200watt two way PA speaker just with a lighter cone to give the live response feel and a separate HF driver under the dust cap which is an entirely different animal all together.

Here is EXACTLY what Mr. Cliff Chase posted on the subject:

"That speaker is simply the wrong choice with a tube power amp like that. The amp is only 50W. It's going to generate significant amounts of distortion at even moderate volumes. That distortion would usually get filtered with a traditional guitar speaker. But with the X200 all those nasty highs are going to go right to the tweeter. You demonstrated this to yourself when you lowered the volume.

Furthermore the impedance curve presented to the amp is going to be all kinds of funky. Tube power amps for guitar are designed around the typical impedance curve presented by a traditional guitar speaker.

You want a clean, fairly high-power solid-state power amp with that. Either something like an 800W Matrix or one of those Class-D amps (600W or so)."

I agree with him 100%. I'm driving two cabs with a 530watt per channel class H solid state amp and have had ZERO issues. Plenty of clean, low THD power with tons of headroom.
 

666was999

Power User
Mine is now mounted in a Tech 21 power enginge 60 (open back) and it is plenty loud and sounds clear. I had in an open back combo housing before and drove it with a crate power block or with a Hughes & Kettner Black Spirit (powerattenuator at 20w) and that was loud too. BTW 20w from the H&K or 60w from the Tech 21 are different than 90w from the Crate. The Crate somehow isn't that loud.
The F12 needs way less power than the usual PA speaker.
The specs say it has 97 db sensitivity and that's a lot. 97 db already from 1w...1w already is way beyond bedroom volume.
 

JiveTurkey

Experienced
I'm pretty sure these are closer to a 200watt two way PA speaker just with a lighter cone to give the live response feel and a separate HF driver under the dust cap which is an entirely different animal all together.

Here is EXACTLY what Mr. Cliff Chase posted on the subject:

"That speaker is simply the wrong choice with a tube power amp like that. The amp is only 50W. It's going to generate significant amounts of distortion at even moderate volumes. That distortion would usually get filtered with a traditional guitar speaker. But with the X200 all those nasty highs are going to go right to the tweeter. You demonstrated this to yourself when you lowered the volume.

Furthermore the impedance curve presented to the amp is going to be all kinds of funky. Tube power amps for guitar are designed around the typical impedance curve presented by a traditional guitar speaker.

You want a clean, fairly high-power solid-state power amp with that. Either something like an 800W Matrix or one of those Class-D amps (600W or so)."

I agree with him 100%. I'm driving two cabs with a 530watt per channel class H solid state amp and have had ZERO issues. Plenty of clean, low THD power with tons of headroom.
What amp are you using again?
 

Justincase

Experienced
Mine is now mounted in a Tech 21 power enginge 60 (open back) and it is plenty loud and sounds clear. I had in an open back combo housing before and drove it with a crate power block or with a Hughes & Kettner Black Spirit (powerattenuator at 20w) and that was loud too. BTW 20w from the H&K or 60w from the Tech 21 are different than 90w from the Crate. The Crate somehow isn't that loud.
The F12 needs way less power than the usual PA speaker.
The specs say it has 97 db sensitivity and that's a lot. 97 db already from 1w...1w already is way beyond bedroom volume.
If it works for you I'm happy for you. I personally would want more clean headroom to use these speakers to their full potential and even a cheap Behringer with enough power will do that. When the wife is gone I crank mine and there is no way 20watts is going to get me where I want to be.... definitely won't get me where I NEED to be when my buddy comes by with his Randall to jam.
 
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666was999

Power User
Ah, that's ok, I also always wait for the wife and the kids to go out before cranking it up, they'd call me deaf or crazy otherwise. But there is no guy with a Randall next to me, that would rise the bar.

I guess clean headroom comes from the design of the power amp, maybe it's always the poor power supply that makes problems there and the question is if it can supply fast attacks in the lows or if it gets to it's limits then.
When you take a 400w amp for a 200w speaker the supply should always be good enough even when the design is cheap. A solution that works for sure. That does not say that all tiny amps are garbage on the other hand.
Some are crappy, some are decend. Some lie about their power rating, some give a true and fair view.
 

Justincase

Experienced
Ah, that's ok, I also always wait for the wife and the kids to go out before cranking it up, they'd call me deaf or crazy otherwise. But there is no guy with a Randall next to me, that would rise the bar.

I guess clean headroom comes from the design of the power amp, maybe it's always the poor power supply that makes problems there and the question is if it can supply fast attacks in the lows or if it gets to it's limits then.
When you take a 400w amp for a 200w speaker the supply should always be good enough even when the design is cheap. A solution that works for sure. That does not say that all tiny amps are garbage on the other hand.
Some are crappy, some are decend. Some lie about their power rating, some give a true and fair view.
I had bought the Behringer locally as a temporary solution until the class A/B Crown I ordered came in. Surprisingly it wasn't a bad amp for half the price. Also the company was dragging their feet shipping so I cancelled my order. Of course they lie....it's Behringer. They rate it at 530w@8ohm per channel when it actually only pushes 442w@8ohm before clipping. Which is still plenty for my application. It's a direct ripoff of a QSC amp rated at 425w@8ohm so that makes sense. It's just got cheap caps so it's either re-cap it or trash it when it dies. My only complaint so far is the fan is quite loud. I'd love to have a matrix GT1600FX but they cost $1000. Epx4000 cost less than 1/3 that.
It was tested here:
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/the-behringer-epx4000-amp.1384374/
 

666was999

Power User
I don't know if a Matrix would make any audible difference for guitar, guitars have to sound distorted or compressed anyway...maybe for recorded music? This beast could drive a 4x12 loaded with 4 F12-X200s, that would be nice :)
 

Joker069

Member
I have been pondering the combo of NL12 and F12-X200 for over a year. I'm glad someone else (you) tried it and had success. I have 2 NL12s and I think I will plunge into a couple X200s.
Looking forward hearing what you think. I am far from a pro player so interesting to see what others thinks. I did this as I had the speaker, and had the NL12. I was planning to use the F12 X 200 into one of my Xitones cab, but tried it in the NL12 and was very happy and kept it (as the cab is ridiculously small and light, so great for portability)
 

Justincase

Experienced
Ah, that's ok, I also always wait for the wife and the kids to go out before cranking it up, they'd call me deaf or crazy otherwise. But there is no guy with a Randall next to me, that would rise the bar.

I guess clean headroom comes from the design of the power amp, maybe it's always the poor power supply that makes problems there and the question is if it can supply fast attacks in the lows or if it gets to it's limits then.
When you take a 400w amp for a 200w speaker the supply should always be good enough even when the design is cheap. A solution that works for sure. That does not say that all tiny amps are garbage on the other hand.
Some are crappy, some are decend. Some lie about their power rating, some give a true and fair view.
Lol. Only the wife. I just make the kids suffer through it....I feel like it's just returning the favor 😂🤣😂
 

Paulg2uk

Power User
Hi guys,

I hope you are all well. Managed to try my Zilla cab with my boogie head using the effects loop return with my FM3 and axe fx III. I’m still getting the same issue unfortunately. So it can’t be the power amp causing the problem.

I’ve recorded the issue with my iPhone, I know it's not ideal but you can hear the distortion coming through the speaker more with the bass strings on the guitar. A fellow Fractal user on the forum (Thanks Tony) has the same speaker in his cab and said it sounds like a resonance thing.

Here's the audio file of the issue. Let me know what you all think.

Cheers

Paul

 
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