Celestion F12-X200

thanks, I have each the FX and the K12 speakers. 2 of each. My use has also changed since we have decided to go IMEs as well. Need a speaker to get the feedback still though. Would you mind sharing your specs for the Box and mention the type of wood you used for the box as well? I would like to try them as well.

I am trying to try the self powered QSC 12.2 and see how that works getting the amp out of my rack to lighten things up. The Matrix NL12s I have are nice and light as well. I have those up for sale in case I like the QSC better and will help pay for the QSC.

Seems like this desirable setup for my AXE III is a money rabbit hole. GAS...
 
thanks, I have each the FX and the K12 speakers. 2 of each. My use has also changed since we have decided to go IMEs as well. Need a speaker to get the feedback still though. Would you mind sharing your specs for the Box and mention the type of wood you used for the box as well? I would like to try them as well.

I am trying to try the self powered QSC 12.2 and see how that works getting the amp out of my rack to lighten things up. The Matrix NL12s I have are nice and light as well. I have those up for sale in case I like the QSC better and will help pay for the QSC.

Seems like this desirable setup for my AXE III is a money rabbit hole. GAS...
Here are the specs:
Width: 50 cm, Height: 45 cm, Depth: 35 cm. Bassreflex 5 cm, mounting plate for the 12" is 47 cm (width) x 36 cm (height). The body of the cabinet is made of 15 cm birch plywood, but the plate for the back of the cabinet was made of 15 cm spruce wood.
The plate for the bass reflex tunnels (3 of them, and they were made for "tuning ability", if there would have been the need for it) is 47 cm (wide) x 30 cm. There is also some internal bracing, so it's really rock solid and very stiff.

I hope, that helps a bit.

Would be interesting, how close (or far) my specs are from the official Celestion suggestions....
 
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I have a friend who Builds speaker cabinets for guitar amps. So I thought I would utilise him and commission him to build me the Celestion spec F12 x200 Cabinet from the design plan on the Celestion website.

I got I today!!

I haven't yet had chance to fire it up but was wondering how this speaker is going to perform when sending IR's from larger cabinet configurations to it?
I Completely understand that because it is a full range speaker and that it will give me exactly what is given to it however, a small 1x12 box will never sound like a Marshall 4x12 with greenbacks or a Fender 4x10 with Jensens for instance.

So therefore, I was wondering if anyone knows the answer to this question. As a pure guess, I would imagine, for example, the speaker will give the exact sound of a Marshall 4x12 being played through a 1x12 speaker? as laws of physics surely would denote that a 1x12 speaker will not actually ever sound like a real 4x12 cabinet but rather it would just emulate the sound of the cabinet only.

If my assumptions are correct am I better off sticking to 1x12 IR configurations rather than anything larger? Obviously taking into consideration that its all personal choice and if you happen to like the sound of a 4x10 being played through a 1x12 speaker then that all cool too!

Any thoughts on this would be most helpful
Thanks
 
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I have a friend who Builds speaker cabinets for guitar amps. So I thought I would utilise him and commission him to build me the Celestion spec F12 x200 Cabinet from the design plan on the Celestion website.

I got I today!!

I haven't yet had chance to fire it up but was wondering how this speaker is going to perform when sending IR's from larger cabinet configurations to it?
I Completely understand that because it is a full range speaker and that it will give me exactly what is given to it however, a small 1x12 box will never sound like a Marshall 4x12 with greenbacks or a Fender 4x10 with Jensens for instance.

So therefore, I was wondering if anyone knows the answer to this question. As a pure guess, I would imagine, for example, the speaker will give the exact sound of a Marshall 4x12 being played through a 1x12 speaker? as laws of physics surely would denote that a 1x12 speaker will not actually ever sound like a real 4x12 cabinet but rather it would just emulate the sound of the cabinet only.

If my assumptions are correct am I better off sticking to 1x12 IR configurations rather than anything larger? Obviously taking into consideration that its all personal choice and if you happen to like the sound of a 4x10 being played through a 1x12 speaker then that all cool too!

Any thoughts on this would be most helpful
Thanks
An FRFR or GFR-Cab will never give you the sound of a 4x12 cab. It will give you the reproduction of the miked speaker of this cab. As the behavior of a speaker, together with 3 other speakers in one bigger cab is different, than in a smaller 1x12 cab, It's still pretty cool. Also..as the 4 speakers in a cab all sound a little different, you have many choices of mixing them together. So..long story short: You will never get the feeling of a full 4x12 cabinet with just one 12" cab, but, together with the "guitar-speaker" like behavior of the F12X200 and the right sweet spot IRs, you can have a lot of fun with it.
 
So I'm having a hard time understanding the benefits of these speakers vs. a powered PA speaker?

Like let's say I have a 1000W Matrix power amp running into a Celestion spec'ed, ported 1x12 with a F12-X200 for one rig, and a powered EV ZLX-12p 12" PA on another rig. Both of them located on the ground, I'm standing approx. 10ft. away from them at the same, both pointed at the same listening angle, and using the exact same preset and IR on both. Would there be any actual difference besides form factor? Given that they're both full range speakers, isn't this just a Celestion take on a PA style speaker?

The frequency responses are basically the same, the impedance is the same, and you'll be pushing the same type of signal. The EV speaker is rated at 1000W and the Celestion is rated at 200W. Marketing speak aside, what actual differences can be heard (besides like basic tone coloring of the cabinet wood vs. PA horn)? Wouldn't you ideally want to avoid the coloring of a cabinet if you're using an IR?

I don't mean to sound like a skeptic, but I find it really hard to believe that this accomplishes anything besides masking a powered PA setup as a traditional guitar rig. It also seems to take a lot of money out of one's wallet to accomplish this haha. More power to those that want to build a cab out and do exactly that, but to me it's seems like throwing a lot of money and engineering to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

If it's an aesthetic choice I get that, but I can't figure out why people think of it as a better tone solution... Am I missing anything?
 
So I'm having a hard time understanding the benefits of these speakers vs. a powered PA speaker?

Like let's say I have a 1000W Matrix power amp running into a Celestion spec'ed, ported 1x12 with a F12-X200 for one rig, and a powered EV ZLX-12p 12" PA on another rig. Both of them located on the ground, I'm standing approx. 10ft. away from them at the same, both pointed at the same listening angle, and using the exact same preset and IR on both. Would there be any actual difference besides form factor? Given that they're both full range speakers, isn't this just a Celestion take on a PA style speaker?

The frequency responses are basically the same, the impedance is the same, and you'll be pushing the same type of signal. The EV speaker is rated at 1000W and the Celestion is rated at 200W. Marketing speak aside, what actual differences can be heard (besides like basic tone coloring of the cabinet wood vs. PA horn)? Wouldn't you ideally want to avoid the coloring of a cabinet if you're using an IR?

I don't mean to sound like a skeptic, but I find it really hard to believe that this accomplishes anything besides masking a powered PA setup as a traditional guitar rig. It also seems to take a lot of money out of one's wallet to accomplish this haha. More power to those that want to build a cab out and do exactly that, but to me it's seems like throwing a lot of money and engineering to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

If it's an aesthetic choice I get that, but I can't figure out why people think of it as a better tone solution... Am I missing anything?
I also have 2 EV ZLX-12 speakers (we use them together with a Mackie Subwoofer as a PA for small venues) and I have tried the AxefX through them.
They don't have the same frequency response, the EV is more "flat" and it has a "real" tweeter with active frequency compensation.

Compared to another FRFR-speaker like the Celestion K12H-200TC, which has something like a "pseudo2 2-way" construction, the F12X200 has more "thump" and can be forced to feedback easier, which makes it feel a bit more like a "guitar speaker". The Kemper "Kone" is nothing than a re-labelled K12H-200TC, imho, if you look at the specs and the pics. The K12H, on the other side, is more "Hifi" and will tell more, what's going on in the High-Range of an IR. I had 2 of them in a 2x12 cab, the problem with the coax-design is, that you get into phase issues, if you have them side a side on the same axxis. I like the F12X200 more than the K12Hs.
 
I've mentioned somewhere else in this forum regarding two Mission Engineering Gemini 1 cabs that we have in our studio one of which does not function due to a bad amp. We took out the amp and other components and installed a Matrix GM50 that we had and replaced the stock coax with the Celestion F12. I already liked the Gemini 1stock and used it all the time but prefer the one with the F12 and Matrix in it. The Gemini is a sealed cab and I think the low end is perfect and see no need to put a port in it as Celestion suggest. The F12/Matrix setup is a lot of fun to play and mix in some of your favorite IR's and it's a great setup for small gigs.
If the cab is big enough, there is no need for a port, imho. The port in my DIY-cab is closed most of the time and was only made for experimental purposes. Most cabs with a port have significant "ups & downs" in the bass range.
 
I also have 2 EV ZLX-12 speakers (we use them together with a Mackie Subwoofer as a PA for small venues) and I have tried the AxefX through them.
They don't have the same frequency response, the EV is more "flat" and it has a "real" tweeter with active frequency compensation.

Compared to another FRFR-speaker like the Celestion K12H-200TC, which has something like a "pseudo2 2-way" construction, the F12X200 has more "thump" and can be forced to feedback easier, which makes it feel a bit more like a "guitar speaker". The Kemper "Kone" is nothing than a re-labelled K12H-200TC, imho, if you look at the specs and the pics. The K12H, on the other side, is more "Hifi" and will tell more, what's going on in the High-Range of an IR. I had 2 of them in a 2x12 cab, the problem with the coax-design is, that you get into phase issues, if you have them side a side on the same axxis. I like the F12X200 more than the K12Hs.

So the F12 is like a PA speaker, but with a guitar speaker Freq range ("voiced for guitar"), guitar speaker style resonant frequency, and a lower power rating?
 
So the F12 is like a PA speaker, but with a guitar speaker Freq range ("voiced for guitar"), guitar speaker style resonant frequency, and a lower power rating?

No not really, its supposed to be FRFR, it has a tweeter, and you use IR's with it. Resonant frequency really comes from the cabinet. 200 watts is not low power. The claim to fame on this one is that it supposed to "feel" like a guitar speaker more than standard FRFR speakers.
 
The F12 is awesome. I am fine with powered monitors but the F12 gives it that guitar like feel while still being able to work with synth tones, acoustic tones and other things that normal guitar speakers might struggle with.
 
So I'm having a hard time understanding the benefits of these speakers vs. a powered PA speaker?

Like let's say I have a 1000W Matrix power amp running into a Celestion spec'ed, ported 1x12 with a F12-X200 for one rig, and a powered EV ZLX-12p 12" PA on another rig. Both of them located on the ground, I'm standing approx. 10ft. away from them at the same, both pointed at the same listening angle, and using the exact same preset and IR on both. Would there be any actual difference besides form factor? Given that they're both full range speakers, isn't this just a Celestion take on a PA style speaker?

The frequency responses are basically the same, the impedance is the same, and you'll be pushing the same type of signal. The EV speaker is rated at 1000W and the Celestion is rated at 200W. Marketing speak aside, what actual differences can be heard (besides like basic tone coloring of the cabinet wood vs. PA horn)? Wouldn't you ideally want to avoid the coloring of a cabinet if you're using an IR?

I don't mean to sound like a skeptic, but I find it really hard to believe that this accomplishes anything besides masking a powered PA setup as a traditional guitar rig. It also seems to take a lot of money out of one's wallet to accomplish this haha. More power to those that want to build a cab out and do exactly that, but to me it's seems like throwing a lot of money and engineering to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

If it's an aesthetic choice I get that, but I can't figure out why people think of it as a better tone solution... Am I missing anything?
The benefit of the Kemper Kone (similar to the Celestion K12H-200TC), for example, is that the Kemper has a built-in processing that ensures it delivers a reasonably flat response from a known starting point (the speaker).

That aside, my opinion agrees with yours. The goal of a FRFR solution is to faithfully reproduce what you throw at it. If a PA-style speaker is sufficiently accurate (like a $4k Meyer 212 or great studio monitors) then any deviation from that goal post would be, by definition, less accurate. Celestion is actively marketing the F12-X200 as NOT being FRFR. They are marketing the coloration as a feature. IMNSHO, if coloration sounds better to you, then you're saying the AxeFX/F3/whatever isn't giving you the full experience of a real amp and the new speaker has to make up for it.

I don't see any other logical way to look at it. The Celestion F12-X200 cannot, logically, be an improvement on the AxeFX if it's designed to color your signal. It's just different.

Lest anyone think I'm a hater, I'm not. These are all just tools and they all sound fantastic. If you love your Radio Shack headphones, more power to ya. I love my $89 Epiphone with P-90's. No shame. I have a whole collection of <$250 guitars.
 
"Coloration"? Celestion is "marketing" no such thing, here is a quote directly from them:

The F12-X200's response is remarkably neutral, with Celestion technology built in to ensure there are no unwanted colourations

These speakers are primarily for backline cabs for those who prefer that approach such as the folks who prefer using an amp and a guitar cab of their choice. Not everyone enjoys the PA/FRFR approach, it just doesn't work for them.
I'm sorry I just don't get the logic -- not yours, Celestion's.

Either it's an uncolored FRFR or it's not. This hedging partway between FRFR and a guitar speaker is bs imo.

The point of FRFR is to reproduce the tone of your modeler exactly as it is, so it serves as an objective reference you can use to refine your patches.

The point of a guitar speaker is to get your rocks off, which you then hope can be mic'd in such a way as to make fun noises on a recording or through a PA. The whole notion of an FRFR speaker for people who don't like them and prefer guitar speakers is selling a logical impossibility. It can't be the thing and the thing it's not at the same time.
 
They never said it was FRFR and never marketed as such, they have said at NAMM and in many interviews that they wanted to create a driver for modelers and IR's that was full guitar range which behaved (a little bounce in the notes and some feedback) similar to a typical guitar speaker. Their words not mine. They did just that and it works quite well, it's not for everyone like all things. I much prefer it over the stock Gemini 1 cab I have been using for several years and I preferred the Gemini over the CLR that many call the holy Grail. To each his own as they say.
IMHO it's just the NOT NEUTRAL sound of the F12X200, that makes it so special. Yeah..it hypes the bass range quite a bit. And I personally boost the upper midrange between 1 khz and 5 khz a bit for more presence. But it pretty much reacts like a guitar speaker.
Maybe FRFRs like the CLRs are better for chosing the right IR for PA or recording purposes. When selecting IRs, I always switch between my studio monitors (IK Multimedia Iloud MTM with built in ARC), my AKG K12pro headphones and my DIY-cab with the F12X200. It's pretty much the average of all 3 systems, that helps me decide, which IRs will suit best. But for live and rehearsal, the character of the chosen IR is pictured well with the F12X200,
with a bit "fun factor", caused by the "Hump" of the F12X200. And like Nathan said: To each one his own.
 
Well, I really liked what I heard in the Gene Baker Xitone/F12-X200 demo vid. So I`m ordering a Xitone Active wedge with the F12-X200 in next month. I think it`ll be a great pair up with my FM3.... hoping to get my Invite soon. ;p
 
For me, I stuck one in an Avatar 1x12 3D cab - the Forte design. The IR through the PA is Ok but it is never a tone that really inspires me - and I have a nice PA.

I like a guitar speaker on a stage. However, I was always finding something that I was trying to EQ into or out of every guitar speaker I tried.

So I finally just stuck an F12 in the cab, found an IR that got me pretty close to what I like. Then I just use the EQ on Out-2 to tune the sound that I like. The F12 is more responsive to the EQ tweaks than the limited ranger guitar speaker.

I don't worry about getting hung up on what the patch or the IR is "supposed" to sound like. I just know what my ears like. And different stages and different SPL change what my ears perceive anyway - so I can use the final EQ to get what I want.
 
Broken record. The F12 is the best compromise between resigning yourself to using a powered monitor or saying screw it and turning off cab emulation and using a traditional guitar cabinet. It doesn't color the sound so much as gives you the "feel" of playing through guitar speakers.
 
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