Celestion F12-X200 vs FRFR

[4406cuda]

What will sound and feel better in the back line in a live band situation?

A pair of Celestion F12-X200 in 1x12 cabs powered by a Matrix SS or a pair of PA Monitors. I have been thinking about the EV PXM-12MP.

Thanks

 

[Andy Eagle]

The f12x200s BUT you need to be carful what cab you put them in IME. I have them in Xitone passive wedges (and GT100fx)and they work great but I tried them in a few other cabs and the EQ was affected negatively .

 

[4406cuda]

The f12x200s BUT you need to be carful what cab you put them in IME. I have them in Xitone passive wedges (and GT100fx)and they work great but I tried them in a few other cabs and the EQ was affected negatively .

If I go that route, I will put them in a pair of Bogner Cubes.

 

[marsonic]

The f12x200s BUT you need to be carful what cab you put them in IME. I have them in Xitone passive wedges (and GT100fx)and they work great but I tried them in a few other cabs and the EQ was affected negatively .

Is there any specific information on this? I know that Celestion publishes specs for their intended cabs. But...I've always wondered if there's a good way to predict how bad/good it may sound in something else or if there's a general effect of open/closed normal guitar cabs.

There's a part of me that would love a vertical 2x12 of them (mostly for wet/dry) if it'll work....but it hasn't been worth ordering all the things just in case it might work.

 

[sprint]

Is there any specific information on this? I know that Celestion publishes specs for their intended cabs. But...I've always wondered if there's a good way to predict how bad/good it may sound in something else or if there's a general effect of open/closed normal guitar cabs.

There's a part of me that would love a vertical 2x12 of them (mostly for wet/dry) if it'll work....but it hasn't been worth ordering all the things just in case it might work.

Here's Celestion's recommended spec for an X200 cab - I've wondered the same as I have a few cabs the X200 will fit in but not sure these cab enclosures will work as FR with the X200 given different dimensions etc than Celestion's posted spec ... I figure logically that the farther away a cab design is from their spec, the less the x200 would translate across tones but I suspect there may be some factors more impactful than others (i.e. the port?, closed vs open?, dimensions?).

 

[marsonic]

Here's Celestion's recommended spec for an X200 cab - I've wondered the same as I have a few cabs the X200 will fit in but not sure these cab enclosures will work as FR with the X200 given different dimensions etc than Celestion's posted spec ... I figure logically that the farther away a cab design is from their spec, the less the x200 would translate across tones but I suspect there may be some factors more impactful than others (i.e. the port?, closed vs open?, dimensions?).

Right. That's what I meant. Thank you for reminding me where it was.

The interesting part to me was always this:

The F12-X200 will deliver great tone in a conventional open or closed back guitar cab. However, to get the most from the speaker’s full range capability, we recommend loading it into a bass reflex cabinet.

I really wish there was a way to quantify (or at least describe) what the difference is going to be. If it's just low-end extension....that's probably not a big deal. Especially if it's something like a guitar cab cab rolling off around 60-100Hz and the bass reflex cab rolling off at ~40ish or something like that. Because, as awesome as it feels by yourself....if you're playing with a bassist (or alongside a backing track at an appropriate volume, or any other application where something else is making the low bass)...there's a point where "right" is very much different from "best".

IOW, there's a level of "wrong" that's probably preferable...it would just improve your stage sound similar to how most FOH & recording chains for guitar cabs involve a high-pass filter anyway.

I want to try it at some point....but we're also talking about $400 for speakers, at least that much for the cab, plus an amp (don't own an appropriate one) just to try it out. It's not a crazy amount of money, but unless I go nuts and decide I want to start buying Historics or soemthing...that's almost new guitar money for me.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

I figure logically that the farther away a cab design is from their spec, the less the x200 would translate across tones but I suspect there may be some factors more impactful than others (i.e. the port?, closed vs open?, dimensions?).

Celestion F12-X200 Speaker Review might be useful reading. The author talks about mounting the speaker in three different cabinets, and some things he did to the cabinets to adjust the tone.

 

[sprint]

Celestion F12-X200 Speaker Review might be useful reading. The author talks about mounting the speaker in three different cabinets, and some things he did to the cabinets to adjust the tone.

Thanks - good article - the subject of the x200 in different cab designs is tough because we (well me anyway) want an FR Cab to walk the line between full frfr (i.e studio monitor) and a traditional guitar cab. I guess it won't be perfectly one way or the other and there are tradeoffs, and some will prefer more one way than others who will prefer more the other way within the FRFR vs Trad Cab spectrum.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Thanks - good article - the subject of the x200 in different cab designs is tough because we (well me anyway) want an FR Cab to walk the line between full frfr (i.e studio monitor) and a traditional guitar cab. I guess it won't be perfectly one way or the other and there are tradeoffs, and some will prefer more one way than others who will prefer more the other way within the FRFR vs Trad Cab spectrum.

A wedge cabinet can be positioned to act like a traditional cab, but getting the internal volume the same as a traditional cabinet will change the dimensions of the wedge. That internal volume is important for the lows, as is the size of the port. I'm sure someone out there makes something appropriate, but finding them is the problem.

Mojotone makes a number of different cabinets, and their "Slammin'" cabs look interesting. There's a 1x12 and a 2x12 version. Perhaps contacting them and pointing them at the Celestion specs would let Mojotone's cab designer make some changes to work right.

 

[4406cuda]

For those who played an EV PXM 12MP, compared to other FRFR solutions, does it come closer to sounding and feeling like a guitar cab?

Those who have have played the Celestion F12-X200, does it work better in a live band situation than an FRFR like the EV PXM 12MP?

 

[skolacki]

When I bought my speaker I ran it in an open back 112 and I was very happy with it. It’s in a spec ported cab now. Makes less bottom than it did open backed. I attribute that to wall reflections. Either way this was an improvement over the HR112 I had been using. When I get around to buying another speaker it’s going in the open back.

 

[jrx]

When I bought my speaker I ran it in an open back 112 and I was very happy with it. It’s in a spec ported cab now. Makes less bottom than it did open backed. I attribute that to wall reflections. Either way this was an improvement over the HR112 I had been using. When I get around to buying another speaker it’s going in the open back.

I had the same experience. I put it in an open back cab that had roughly the right volume compared to the spec cab. The result was too much low end and what seemed like vibrations that i could not do anything about. I then modified the cab by closing the back, adding some sound insulation, and including a 4” rear port to make it closer still to the spec cab. After that i was getting tones very similar to my headphones . I am happy with this as the cab is really half a 2x12 (with a barrier between the 2 1x12). I have one of my fav guitar speakers in the other half for if/when i want it.

 

[marsonic]

When I bought my speaker I ran it in an open back 112 and I was very happy with it. It’s in a spec ported cab now. Makes less bottom than it did open backed. I attribute that to wall reflections. Either way this was an improvement over the HR112 I had been using. When I get around to buying another speaker it’s going in the open back.

I had the same experience. I put it in an open back cab that had roughly the right volume compared to the spec cab. The result was too much low end and what seemed like vibrations that i could not do anything about. I then modified the cab by closing the back, adding some sound insulation, and including a 4” rear port to make it closer still to the spec cab. After that i was getting tones very similar to my headphones . I am happy with this as the cab is really half a 2x12 (with a barrier between the 2 1x12). I have one of my fav guitar speakers in the other half for if/when i want it.

For both of you, how much did you experiment with placement inside the room? Did that affect the bass in the open back cab?

For JRX, did you do anything special for the port or just cut a 4" hole in the back? Did you listen to it before you cut the hole?

 

[Greg Ferguson]

For those who played an EV PXM 12MP, compared to other FRFR solutions, does it come closer to sounding and feeling like a guitar cab?

The EV has a mode that turns off the coaxial tweeter leaving only the 12" speaker enabled. And, since EV makes killer 12" speakers, I suspect that mode would sound very good, much more like a regular cab.

I have always tipped my amps back to point at my head so my "amp in the room" sound is the sound of a miked speaker or an FRFR, and, as a result, I treat my EVs as an FRFR and am very happy with the sound.

 

[jrx]

For both of you, how much did you experiment with placement inside the room? Did that affect the bass in the open back cab?

For JRX, did you do anything special for the port or just cut a 4" hole in the back? Did you listen to it before you cut the hole?

I have a good metre (3’) to a wall in a basement. That probably matters since it is rear ported - there was no way for me to put the port on the front. I used a 4” diameter vent duct pipe that i fashioned into place for the baffle. Conveniently, it also had the spec length for the baffle or pretty close to it. It is not just a hole. I used a 4” hole cutter to be able to insert the pipe. Thankfully the 4” duct pipe fit without interfering with the speaker. The work is not elegant but it did the job. I wanted to see if i would be happy with it.

I did this about 6-7 months ago. I must have been motivated to put the hole/baffle in because it was an effort. I don’t recall how much of a difference it made.

 

[Dave Merrill]

If somebody made an empty powered cab to this spec, I bet they'd sell lots of them...

 

[skolacki]

For both of you, how much did you experiment with placement inside the room? Did that affect the bass in the open back cab?

For JRX, did you do anything special for the port or just cut a 4" hole in the back? Did you listen to it before you cut the hole?

I stuffed a seat cushion in back to tame the wall effects. Tilted it back with a small box. I just placed it so it pointed at where I usually play.

 

[Justincase]

Celestion F12-x200 are great speakers and a very cost effective solution if you DIY the cabs. Spec cabs sound great and aren't hard to build if you can cut squares to size that are square. A pair can be built with a used rack amp for about the same price as a pair of headrush frfr12 and they sound/feel much much better. You can always hit up a local car stereo guy or cabinet builder with the celestion print for a quote if DIY isn't an option. This stuff from Home Depot works great for this project and is only $75 a sheet.

 

[jrx]

Celestion F12-x200 are great speakers and a very cost effective solution if you DIY the cabs. Spec cabs sound great and aren't hard to build if you can cut squares to size that are square. A pair can be built with a used rack amp for about the same price as a pair of headrush frfr12 and they sound/feel much much better. You can always hit up a local car stereo guy or cabinet builder with the celestion print for a quote if DIY isn't an option. This stuff from Home Depot works great for this project and is only $75 a sheet.View attachment 108696

That is pretty much what i did for my cabs. But i went to a place that had void free baltic birch. Didn’t cost much more, its what is often used in high end cabs, and they were willing to do the cuts for me . I used a 1/2 thickness for the baffle and a jig saw to cut the holes for speakers.

 

[Justincase]

That is pretty much what i did for my cabs. But i went to a place that had void free baltic birch. Didn’t cost much more, its what is often used in high end cabs, and they were willing to do the cuts for me . I used a 1/2 thickness for the baffle and a jig saw to cut the holes for speakers.

I used high grade Baltic birch for one cab and that home Depot stuff for the other. Wasn't a void one in that home Depot stuff...just fewer layers. Both cabs sound exactly the same. I'm sure you could probably use 1/2" for the entire thing and wouldn't be able to tell the difference sonically. I used a hole saw for the port and a basic homemade circle jig and router for the driver hole.