Can you match this liquid Mesa tone? I can't - need help!

V

VidarAus

Experienced
Hi Guys,

Well, I am still on the Petrucci bandwagon. I have managed to come up with a pretty decent lead (will try and upload one day), and I love Marco Sfogli Andromeda lead patch. Thanks to Shredi I am working on some clean tones. But, I can't for the life of me dial in a chunky, liquid rhythm tone like Petrucci uses.

Please have a listen to the following compilation (yes, the editing is very quick and nasty, but shows exactly the tone I want to nail):

heavyriffing.mp3

This is a compilation of Petrucci riffs played by Petrucci - definitly not me in anyway, I just stuck them together really quickly. I am pretty sure I can post this in short clip form, especially considering the type of licence that came with the track (can make your own tunes with it e.t.c, just not sell them for money).

Anyway, from reading all over the forums, this seems to be the tone a lot of people with the Axe want to nail. Now I understand that it is a mastered recording that has been multi-tracked, tone is all in the fingers e.t.c but surely we can get in the ballpark? I am really frustrated, have tried all of the ideas I could find on the forum and tweaked for hours and still no cigar. IT is always too fizzy or bright or missing something I can hear but not explain. I definetly can't get the liquid type of tone on the clip - liquid but chunky is the only way I can describe it.

By the way I use a set of studio monitors and an Ibanez Prestige with Air Norton in the neck and D-Sonic in the bridge. So I have the gear that should get me in the ball park - now I just need the patch! My room is also acoustically treated (properly) so I have a pretty darn good environment for tweaking accuratley, or at least hearing accuratley the changes to a patch when I alter something.

As a challange to anyone who wants to try, can anyone dial a tone in with the axe and record a clip with tones as close as possible to the above clip??

I am really frustrated and keen as to get a great patch close to this!

Thanks,

VidarAus
 
Double-track your riffs. You'll be surprised by the thickness this adds to the tone.
 
plexi59 said:
Double-track your riffs. You'll be surprised by the thickness this adds to the tone.
Click to expand...

Hi plexi59!

Thanks for the input. I have done this in the past, and am sure this has been done in the attached clip.

I would still like to hear some patches that match the liquidness of this tone, and the organic non-fizzy nature of the sound. Very hard to describe, but I really want to achieve that massive, natural rhythm tone that you can achieve with a real Mesa - but doing it with the Axe.

cheers,

VidarAus
 
What exactly is that clip comprised of? Is it actual tracks from "The Glass Prison" or is it some special thing he did as some kind of guitar lesson or demo?

Regardless, it sounds like he's using a Mesa Recto of some kind (he used a Dual Recto on the actual song). Try one of the Axe FX's Recto amp sims ("Recto New" is my personal fav). For that wide, double tracked sound (which I think is a big part why that clip sounds cool), try doing the Petrucci 7ms delay trick. Here's a quote from an interview with Petrucci that explains it:



"I use a 7ms [delay] setting [between left and right speakers] on pretty much every sound. [Editor’s note: This is a technique utilizing a delay setting whereby one-half of the signal (either the entire left or right channel) is delayed by a slight amount in order to create the illusion of depth and space between the speakers. The delay is set 100% wet with 0% feedback so that the entire signal for that channel is delayed by the set amount with no dry (non-delayed) signal or repeats present]."


Here's what Cliff said about doing the trick with the Axe FX:


There's a bunch of different ways to do the delay offset thing.

HOWEVER, the easiest is just to use the enhancer, because that's exactly what it does. The enhancer offsets the right by up to 20 ms. To get 7 ms set the width control to about 11:00.

CC




You might also trying listening to those tracks with one of your speakers turned off so you can hear the non-doubled guitar and get a better idea what the actual tone sounds like.
 
shredi knight said:
What exactly is that clip comprised of? Is it actual tracks from "The Glass Prison" or is it some special thing he did as some kind of guitar lesson or demo?
Click to expand...

Hi Shredi,

The clip is a compilation of execrpts from the guitar isolated stem for "The Shattered Fortress" by Dream Theater. The Special Edition of the Black Clouds and Silver Linings album comes with several CD's that has isolated stem tracks for each of the songs on the album. That is, a seperate track for each instrument (at least) including Vocals, Guitar, Bass, Keys e.t.c and broken up into "Guitar" and "Leads" as well. It is very, very cool as it allows you to construct perfect songs without the guitar parts and to add them yourself, to remix the tracks into something else, or just to listen to each instrument out of the mix.

It has been a real ear opener for me, as Petrucci's tone (as you would expect) sounds completley different out of the mix and on its own.

I find the tracks really useful to get a pure guitar guitar tone to compare against while twekaing. I will often have the isolated track coming out of one speaker and then the Axe-fx out of the other to do comparisons on the fly.

shredi knight said:
Regardless, it sounds like he's using a Mesa Recto of some kind (he used a Dual Recto on the actual song). Try one of the Axe FX's Recto amp sims ("Recto New" is my personal fav). For that wide, double tracked sound (which I think is a big part why that clip sounds cool), try doing the Petrucci 7ms delay trick.
Click to expand...

I see! This (stupidly) is a bit of a revelation for me. Thinking about it now, it does indeed have that Recto growl. I have been trying to nail this tone using the Mark IV and Mark iic+. I will start tweaking with the Recto and see how I go. Perhaps I am more of a Recto person for rhythm. I know I love the Mark's for leads.

One question though - on tour (and on many albums) Petrucci still achieves a similar tone to the clip posted using only Mark IV's and with not a Recto in sight. It is true he used the Road King for a good while and would have dialled in Recto tones there, and also had the Triaxis and would have done the same, but he does get the same Rhythm tone with the Mark's as well. So I am wondering how he does this, and how we can replicate this in the Axe-fx?

Can I ask Shredi, how do you know that he used a Dual Recto on this album (other than by ear)? Can you post any links? I have frequented JP's official site often and had a look at the photo of the gear he used in the studio and it comprised of Mark iic+'s and Mark IV's. Also a Mark V. Unless you are saying that for the "Glass Prison" a Dual Recto was used. I thought that he used Mark's for the latest album (which gets me wondering why I can't get the Axe mark's to sound the same).

As for the 7ms delay, thanks for raising that. I have been playing with that trick for quite a while now and it really adds a lot of body to the tone.

shredi knight said:
You might also trying listening to those tracks with one of your speakers turned off so you can hear the non-doubled guitar and get a better idea what the actual tone sounds like.
Click to expand...

Thanks for raising this as well. As covered I have done this and it does help to isolate the toneand remove the double (or quad or whatever) tracking on the album to hear the 'pure' tone better.


Any more suggestions, or more importantly, clips or patches from people that can nail this tone with the Axe.

If someone (including myself - I am still trying) could nail this tone - well - I am not sure what I would do. But I would be just blown away if this box could replicate this!!!

cheers,

VidarAus
 
Well I feel stupid. First for thinking that was "The Glass Prison" and not "The Shattered Fortress" (though a lot of TSF's riffs are from TGP. I guess I wasn't paying much attention to the ones that weren't). Second for thinking it was a Recto. :roll: I still think it sounds like one on the isolated stems though (I did know about them by the way). Maybe it sounds like a Recto to me because he is playing a seven string on that song.

Black Clouds & Silver Linings is almost all Mark IIc+. With the exception of the end solo on "The Count Of Tuscany", which was the new Mark V, all the solos are the IIc+. I believe almost all of the rhythms are too, with maybe some Mark IV as well. There is no Recto on the album. I was saying that a Dual Recto was used on the TGP (every other song on "Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence" was a IIc+).



VidarAus said:
One question though - on tour (and on many albums) Petrucci still achieves a similar tone to the clip posted using only Mark IV's and with not a Recto in sight. It is true he used the Road King for a good while and would have dialled in Recto tones there, and also had the Triaxis and would have done the same, but he does get the same Rhythm tone with the Mark's as well. So I am wondering how he does this....
Click to expand...


I guess that's an argument for tone being in the fingers and it just being the way he plays. I personally usually can tell the difference in what he's using, but not this time. Maybe it was the double tracking or that I thought it was TGP, but I sure thought it was a Recto.


Semi-changing the subject, have you heard his Mark IV tone on the new live Liquid Tension Experiment DVDs? It think it's his best recorded live tone ever. I used it as my main reference point when I was redoing my Mark IV patch and it sounds very close to it. Here's some clips:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U5GpkHjPUs


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fZuX_Q9ruk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwFlWqXpg8g
 
shredi knight said:
Well I feel stupid. First for thinking that was "The Glass Prison" and not "The Shattered Fortress" (though a lot of TSF's riffs are from TGP. I guess I wasn't paying much attention to the ones that weren't). Second for thinking it was a Recto. :roll: I still think it sounds like one on the isolated stems though (I did know about them by the way). Maybe it sounds like a Recto to me because he is playing a seven string on that song.
Click to expand...

Don't feel stupid Shredi. I was easily led to believe it was a Recto as well! I agree it does sound like a Recto! I think that the fact that you have never heard his tone from the album isolated from the mix is the culprit. As I was saying, his tone sounds completley diffeent isolated as it does in the mix. Also, the use of the seven string (I do not own one) does indeed chunk up the sound too which makes it harder to recognise the exact equipment.

Also, the riffs in that song are mostly pinched from other Dream Theater tunes so not to worry on that front either.

shredi knight said:
Black Clouds & Silver Linings is almost all Mark IIc+. With the exception of the end solo on "The Count Of Tuscany", which was the new Mark V, all the solos are the IIc+. I believe almost all of the rhythms are too, with maybe some Mark IV as well. There is no Recto on the album. I was saying that a Dual Recto was used on the TGP (every other song on "Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence" was a IIc+).
Click to expand...

Interesting. I have had no luck in replicating the tone using either of the Mark iic+ sims from the Axe. This is not to say it can't be done, but I can't do it.

shredi knight said:
I guess that's an argument for tone being in the fingers and it just being the way he plays. I personally usually can tell the difference in what he's using, but not this time. Maybe it was the double tracking or that I thought it was TGP, but I sure thought it was a Recto.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you are right. If Petrucci played one of the many great Mark IV or iic+ rhythm patches created by the members here, it would sound just like Petrucci and much more like the clip. Thinking about it now, Marco's tone sounds fantastic when he used his Andromeda Lead patch and almost like his original recording. But when I use the patch it sounds good, but nothing like his recording at all. *sigh* I guess there is no accounting for technique.

Having said that, I have read and heard of Axe-FX owners replicating tones using unusual combinations of equipment. I think I might start exploring the non-mesa amps to see if it gets me closer to the sounds in the clip - if that makes sense - and unusual combinations. Who knows?

shredi knight said:
Semi-changing the subject, have you heard his Mark IV tone on the new live Liquid Tension Experiment DVDs? It think it's his best recorded live tone ever. I used it as my main reference point when I was redoing my Mark IV patch and it sounds very close to it. Here's some clips:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U5GpkHjPUs


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fZuX_Q9ruk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwFlWqXpg8g
Click to expand...

I have previuosly had a very quick listen to this on Youtube. I will explore it more throughly again - thank you for the links.

How does one go about buying this DVD? According to the website it is all sold out. Might have to wait for an Ebay offering or something. I agree though that his tone is simply amazing here.


Perhaps in the end 70% comes from technique. Better get me practicing then!

cheers,

VidarAus
 
Also, remember that jp uses a blend of sm57 and md141's to record. I created a 2c+ rhythm patch using redwirez cabs that blended the two as he indicated and it sounds huge. If you've tried everything else, you may want to look into other IR's. Mic position and all that makes a really big differece.
 
chapelizod said:
Also, remember that jp uses a blend of sm57 and md141's to record. I created a 2c+ rhythm patch using redwirez cabs that blended the two as he indicated and it sounds huge. If you've tried everything else, you may want to look into other IR's. Mic position and all that makes a really big differece.
Click to expand...

Can you give a bit more detail on your patch and IR's used ? Please !
 
chapelizod said:
Also, remember that jp uses a blend of sm57 and md141's to record. I created a 2c+ rhythm patch using redwirez cabs that blended the two as he indicated and it sounds huge. If you've tried everything else, you may want to look into other IR's. Mic position and all that makes a really big differece.
Click to expand...

Hi chapelizod,

Thanks very much for contributing to this thread.

Would you be able to post your example patch, and give details of the IR's you used and how you configured them? I own the Red Wirez IR's and have experiemented quite a bit with them to try and match JP's tone. Any insights you have on what I might have missed is very much welcomed. Thanks also for the information regarding the microphones he uses. Any information on placement of these mics?

I really want to nail this tone. Let's keep the suggestions coming! There must be one member out there that has achieved this!? Please reveal your self :lol:

cheers,

VidarAus
 
It's Sennheiser MD421, not 141. Quite easy to replicate with Redwirez IR.

From this article http://www.musicplayers.com/features/guitars/2006/0306John_Petrucci.php

MPc: How do you mic your cabs and get your tone in the studio?

John: Well, I think I’ve found the secret, at least for me. I recently played a solo on Marty Freidman’s new record and I played a solo on Derek Sherinian’s new record just yesterday. In both instances I walked into the studio and told them I needed my cabinet and my head [Editor’s note: John used a Mesa/Boogie Road King head and Traditional Rectifier 4 x 12 cabinet] and two microphones, and got a guitar sound in five minutes. This is what I do. First of all, the cabinets are usually closed back, so there’s no need to mic the back. They have Celestion Vintage 30’s in them, and they’re the smaller Traditional Rectifier cabinets, not the big ones. I think the cabinet should be in a fairly big room. Anytime I’ve ever tried to put a cabinet in a closet or a small room, it just doesn’t sound right. There are too many weird reflections happening in that case. The speaker cabinet needs to have some sort of throw, like when it’s in a big room. You can put a baffle in front of it if you need to, like maybe ten feet out front, but otherwise I think it needs to breath, for whatever reason. I use a [Shure SM] 57 like this [Editor’s note: John showed mic position to be on axis, about an inch and a half radially outward from edge of dust cap in center of cone, close mic’d, almost touching grill cloth]. You never want to put the microphone in the center of the speaker; it’s just way too bright. Then you can fool around with how much off center you go. Obviously, the further away from the center you go, the duller the sound gets. Also, I use a Sennheiser MD421. That’s the second mic, and I position it the same way. You can either place it on the same speaker or on a different speaker. Then, you just blend the two of those. Usually, if you have two faders, the 421 is sitting below the 57. So the 57 is the basic sound, and the 421 is a little darker and it’s very fat.

MPc: So, you use the MD421 to fill out the sound of the SM57.

John: Yeah. It adds a lot of girth to the sound.

MPc: Do you pan each mic discretely?

John: No, they’re not panned, they’re just combined into one channel.

MPc: Are you compressing them at all?

John: No. No compression.

MPc: Are you EQing after that?

John: No EQ. You just have to go into a really good mic pre. I like to use Neve mic pre’s… Flat, everything’s flat.
Click to expand...
 
I've given up the whole JP tone thing a while ago.

My hands (or maybe my ears?) are too fond of upper midrange for me to sound like JP, even though I love his tone, specially on LTE1 and FIY (Kindred Spirits and Peruvian Skies being my fav). I like his lead tones, but the rhythm tones are what catches my attention.

Anyway on the axe, 4x12 CALI plays a VERY important role to get the petrucci sound. Or use the RedWirez IRs, I've been using their MesaRectifierV30 a lot lately. Keep in mind it's the oversized cab though, and will sound a bit more mellow and full than the Standards.

Other than that, I usually follow the Mesa Graphic EQ labeled bands (not the ones on the AxeFX wiki) for the passive EQ, and insert it in between the amp and the cab. Usually ends up as

80Hz 0.707 +3db
239Hz 0.707 +4db
739Hz 0.707 -9db
2179Hz 0.707 +6db
4800Hz 0.707 +3db (Only one that doesn't follow the labeled frequency, because 6.6khz sounds just plain bad)

All bands are peaking.

As for achieving liquidness during leads, I find the upper mids VERY important (need to boost them usually), also don't go too far with the gain, keep presence as low as possible (most likely 0), use the R121 mic and also play with the master volume and cab drive until the harshness goes away. It's also usually a good idea to have the bass in the 4-5 range to smooth things a bit (not on rhythms though).

And fuck is that NOT a RECTUMFRIER in the mp3? I could've sworn it was just like you two. Guess there IS a reason why I sold my JP7.

One last trick, to achieve the Mesa EQ thing, would be to use 2 amp sims:

AMP 1 - USA LEAD (1/2) with SAG set to 0 (Power Amp disabled)
AMP 2 - TUBE PRE with all power amp parameters copied from USA LEAD defaults

then insert the parametric eq in between the two. Can also use that for doing the Master of Puppets thing (slaving a mesa into a marshall power)

I could post patches if you want me to, but I usually tend to use a LOT less gain than most (I dig in really hard when playing) and usually with too much mids for most as well.

Best,

Alex
 
Also forgot to mention that the SM57 in the Axe is useless, because what makes it a good mic for guitars is its proximity effect, and the Axe model doesn't seem to have that.

Also the MD421 on the axe has the Bass Rolloff swtiched on apparently, and also no proximity effect.

All in all you're better off with RedWirez, but if you experiment a bit without thinking too much about the mic and cab labels, and focus on the sound instead, you'll probably find a matching one within the standard cab/mic choices.

Best,

Alex
 
Alex EShadow said:
Thought I'd plugin a sample of what I've achieved so far with the Axe.

CAUTION - VERY BAD AND SLOPPY PLAYING INSIDE lol:

http://alexmreis.com/mp3/paradigm.mp3

My (Horrible) take on Paradigm Shift.
Click to expand...

Hi Alex EShadow,

Thank you very much for the tips on achieving a JP rhythm tone. I will be sure to give them all a go and add them to my bag of tricks. Maybe I will get closer and closer to JP's Rhythm tone yet!

Great tone in the clip you posted as well! Sounds excellent to my ears. The recoding was mixed very Bass heavey but this is probably due to the backing track.

Could you please post your preset for this tone? I would love to disect it and find out how exactly you got your sound!

Thanks a lot,

VidarAus
 
hi Videraus,

I posted a patch link in your other thread,
just give me some feedback (I play on JEM7V so this is already another guitar than yours)

Lars
 
There goes the patch that I used for Paradigm Shift. Hope it helps you out. If you're using a EBMM JP or any other guitar with passive PUPs you'll probably want to turn up the presence on the amp a bit.

http://alexmreis.com/mp3/013%20-%20LTE%20Rhythm.syx
John Petrucci Rhythm sound in LTE. Fine tuned for a LTD Eclipse (Les Paul) with EMG 60/81 and heavy hitting right hand.

Best,

Alex
 
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