can any jazz/fusion guy help me with this question (about scales)

Tonewicker

Tonewicker

Inspired
im not a jazz/fusion guy at all im mainly a metal/rock guy who sometimes also play blues. and because music is my full time job i also played a lot of bossa nova and jazz stuff but only as a rhythm guitar so i cant really play solos over a serious jazz piece. sometimes i throw around some jazzy chords and play lead over it just for going outside my safe zone and for fun of course!
im really good on theory i know how to use a lot of different scales like phrygian dominant/altered scale etc.. but there are 2 scales that i dont know and want to learn (but i cant since i dont know their names)
actually i figured out the first scale by ear its over constant maj7 chords that 2 whole step apart from eachother (for example: Cmaj7 Emaj7 Abmaj7) and the scale that i found by ear is C D# E G Ab B C so its like going 1.5 and a half step over and over. im %100 sure that i didnt found something new and there is a name for it.

the second one is for again constant maj7 chords but this time 1.5step apart from eachother so again if you start from C the chords will be Cmaj7 Ebmaj7 F#maj7 Amaj7. i couldnt find this one by ear and maybe there isnt just 1 scale for these 4 chords but if thats the case what will you guys play over these chords if they are changing really fast ?
 
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That's the cool thing about jazz/fusion; the chords often go by fairly quickly and if they modulate to different keys (like the example you gave), you have to adapt your scales as well. I'd probably play lydian scales over all of those chords.

There are some cool tricks to 'glue' changes together. One of my favorites, that I stole from John Coltrane, is to use a lot of suspended arpeggios to do so. For example, try this: over the first 2 chords play a C sus2 arpeggio, over the last 2 chords play a C# sus2 arpeggio. It's super easy in terms of navigation, but it sounds really awesome.
 
Tonewicker said:
2 whole step apart from eachother (for example: Cmaj7 Emaj7 Abmaj7)
Click to expand...

Jazz nerds will recognize the idea of three major tone centers, a maj3 apart from one another as the essence of Coltrane's Giant Steps, and by extension, several tunes he wrote which involve substituted chord changes based on that idea. (In Giant Steps, the 3 tone centers are Bmaj, Ebmaj, and Gmaj). For 'Trane, and for a zillion jazz students in his wake, these chord changes represented an obstacle course, to force him to quickly play ideas in EACH of the tone centers... NOT to attempt to find a scale that might somehow fit all of them.
As you discovered, there really ISN'T a scale that can truly fit each one of those chords, or tone centers. Not to say that you can't find interesting, fresh sounds by trying, though.
 
Tonewicker said:
im not a jazz/fusion guy at all im mainly a metal/rock guy who sometimes also play blues. and because music is my full time job i also played a lot of bossa nova and jazz stuff but only as a rhythm guitar so i cant really play solos over a serious jazz piece. sometimes i throw around some jazzy chords and play lead over it just for going outside my safe zone and for fun of course!
im really good on theory i know how to use a lot of different scales like phrygian dominant/altered scale etc.. but there are 2 scales that i dont know and want to learn (but i cant since i dont know their names)
actually i figured out the first scale by ear its over constant maj7 chords that 2 whole step apart from eachother (for example: Cmaj7 Emaj7 Abmaj7) and the scale that i found by ear is C D# E G Ab B C so its like going 1.5 and a half step over and over. im %100 sure that i didnt found something new and there is a name for it.

the second one is for again constant maj7 chords but this time 1.5step apart from eachother so again if you start from C the chords will be Cmaj7 Ebmaj7 F#maj7 Amaj7. i couldnt find this one by ear and maybe there isnt just 1 scale for these 4 chords but if thats the case what will you guys play over these chords if they are changing really fast ?
Click to expand...

As Henry said, the 1st scale is a symmetrical augmented scale.
There are 2 possible modes of this scale:
min 3 + min 2nd
and
min 2 + min 3rd
You've laid out the former which is way more common than the latter.
Starting on C, we get:
C Eb E G Ab B C
It can also be seen as being derived from the notes of two aug triads whose roots are a 1/2 step 9or a min 3rd) apart.
E.g. B+ +plus C+ = The C symmetrical augmented scale (m3 + M3).

This scale contains the notes of all of the following chords:
C, Cm, C+, Cmaj7, Cm(maj7), Cmaj7#5
Eb+
E, Em, E+, Emaj7, Em(maj7), Emaj7#5
G+
Ab, Abm, Ab+, Abmaj7, Abm(maj7) and Abmaj7#5
B+
As such, it can be useful on progressions that involve these chords together within a sort of aug scale harmony.
But there might be other factors that will sway the ear elsewhere.

I've seen it suggested to try this scale on ANY chord that contains an aug triad.
E.g. Try it on C7#5 (even though the B nat in the scale is likely to sound like ass if you emphasize it too much on this chord), C#m(maj7), etc.
This is sort of a "taking it out there" type of suggestion.

The other symmetrical chordal sequence you've listed does not normally work the same way.
If you were to combine all of the chord tones of Cmaj7, Ebmaj7, Gbmaj7 and Amaj7, you'd get the following scale:
C Db D Eb E F Gb G Ab A Bb B, i.e. the entire chromatic scale.
So, you actually might get some mileage out of using the chromatic scale over a fast progressions of these 4 chords, but it'd be mostly hit and miss.

A better strategy is to play off of the chord tones of each individual chord while that chord is being sounded.
After that you might try the major or the lydian scales built on the roots of each individual chord while still concentrating mainly on the chord-tones themselves.
After noodling/improvising like this for several hours, months or years w/o success you might want to start composing lines that you like the sound of based on these ideas and attempt to memorize them and use them in your solos.
Scalar or chord-tone noodling only goes so far.
At some point you have to come up with something that sounds like music.

Now, if you made them all dom7 chords (C7, Eb7, Gb7, A7) instead of maj7 chords, when we added up the chord tones we'd get:
C Db Eb E Gb G A B
This one IS a symmetrical scale and it can be used on any one of these chords individually or on a progression using these 4 chords.
Its intervallic symmetrical formula is min 2 + maj 2nd.
Aka "The half-whole diminished scale".
It has one mode, namely maj2 + min 3rd (aka the "whole-half diminished scale") which is used on dim7 chords.

This scale contains all of the notes of:
C13(b9,#9,#11)
Eb13(b9,#9,#11)
Gb13(b9,#9,#11)
and
A13(b9,#9,#11)
In a sense, each one of these chords is the same chord as the other and they can be played on as if that's true to one degree or another, dependent on skill and taste for it to be successful.
And when you use this scale on any of those chords there are no avoid notes, i.e. notes that sound like they *need to* resolve over the duration of that chord.

The same scale also contains all of the following triads and 7th chords:
C, Cm, Cdim, C7, Cm7, Cm7b5, Cdim7
Dbdim, Dbdim7
Eb, Ebm, Ebdim, Eb7, Ebm7, Ebm7b5, Ebdim7
Edim, Edim7
Gb, Gbm, Gbdim, Gb7, Gbm7, Gbm7b5, Gbdim7
Gdim, Gdim7
A, Am, Adim, A7, Am7, Am7b5, Adim7
Bbdim, Bbdim7

On Dbdim7, Edim7, Gdim7 and Bbdim7 we usually think of the whole-half version of this scale.
The half-whole version relates to dom7 chords mostly.

Hope that helps or is useful in some way.
 
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paulasbell said:
Jazz nerds will recognize the idea of three major tone centers, a maj3 apart from one another as the essence of Coltrane's Giant Steps, and by extension, several tunes he wrote which involve substituted chord changes based on that idea. (In Giant Steps, the 3 tone centers are Bmaj, Ebmaj, and Gmaj). For 'Trane, and for a zillion jazz students in his wake, these chord changes represented an obstacle course, to force him to quickly play ideas in EACH of the tone centers... NOT to attempt to find a scale that might somehow fit all of them.
As you discovered, there really ISN'T a scale that can truly fit each one of those chords, or tone centers. Not to say that you can't find interesting, fresh sounds by trying, though.
Click to expand...

Actually, using this scale, starting on B, over the Giant Steps progression "works" nicely over the *entire tune*.
It's a little out there sounding and it also gets real predictable real fast, which makes it potentially boring, but it DOES "work".
B D D# F# G A#
 
fwiw...my 2 cents...
learn diatonic theory cold
see the relationships between the diatonic modes...make sure the relative major and relative minor get in your bloodstream
learn the symmetrical scales...augmented and diminished
learn the harmonic minor...especially the first and fifth modes...harmonic minor, phyridgian major
learn the melodic minor....especially the 1st, 4th and 7th...melodic minor, lydian dominant, altered
arpeggiate the heck out of this stuff
listen, listen, listen
copy what turns you on
practice a lot :)

for the c-eb-f#-a progression...this can be a good exercise...don't limit to any one scale or arpeggiation...

have fun along the way!
 
henryrobinett said:
The first scale is an augmented scale.

There's no scale I know that will play over those four maj7 chords a minor 3rd apart. I play one scale for each chord, really fast. Either Ionian or Phrygian.
Click to expand...

it's true..but how many of us early on in the trek to discover the beauty of harmony were/are confounded with so much basis to digest...that you just pray for 1 scale to play thru everything? ...btw...guilty :)
 
Scales and modes can be gratifying. But the deeper you go the more gratifying. Trying arpeggiating, at least partially, AFTER you've gone through and feel comfortable with the scalar approach. Emphasize the 3rds. Then play with the embellishments - half step below, scale step above the triad. These are called neighbors or sometimes enclosures.You'll get a lot more satisfying results and won't sound like you're playing scales all day.
 
Tonewicker said:
the second one is for again constant maj7 chords but this time 1.5step apart from eachother so again if you start from C the chords will be Cmaj7 Ebmaj7 F#maj7 Amaj7. i couldnt find this one by ear and maybe there isnt just 1 scale for these 4 chords but if thats the case what will you guys play over these chords if they are changing really fast ?
Click to expand...

a good starting point...
first, the bass player is responsible for the root so do not begin on the root tone to start...try the 3rd or 7th...you'll harmonize with him which is good. ;)
second, start with the 3rd as this gets you straight to the relative minor
third play the same progression c-7,eb-7...etc ...a minor 7th exercise...now find the relative major and repeat!
arpeggiate and experiment filling in the arpeggios with approach tones, leading tones, encapsulation ideas etc....things that sound good to you
add the 5th as a starting point too...
at a certain give up and get a beer :)
 
henryrobinett said:
Scales and modes can be gratifying. But the deeper you go the more gratifying. Trying arpeggiating, at least partially, AFTER you've gone through and feel comfortable with the scalar approach. Emphasize the 3rds. Then play with the embellishments - half step below, scale step above the triad. These are called neighbors or sometimes enclosures.You'll get a lot more satisfying results and won't sound like you're playing scales all day.
Click to expand...
you just said what i said! :)
 
to complete what henry said...
yes...scales are a framework but they are not music.
listening to sonny stitt or stan getz just dancing around a simple major scale can be a mouth dropping experience.
But...what this tells me is that these mofos were schooled in diatonic theory and simply messed with tri-tones, and ii-v7 games
and came up with all these advanced sounding harmonies but really they are dancing not thinking
 
thanks for all answers and long explanations guys! i really appreciate it thank you very much :)

i really suprised that the first scale that i asked is called augmented scale when you analyse it its really logical to call it augmented scale but i was expected some middle east name for it because of the sound :)

and for the second question i know there are many different ways to play over 4 maj7 chords that 1.5step apart from eachother and i personally use arpeggios and link them up with chromatic or lydian scale but the reason that i asked is i was curios if there is 1 scale that covers that sound of 4 maj7 chord together just like the first question because to my ears they sound really sweet and its like they are belong to something.

again thanks for all the answers!
 
I actually sometimes prefer the ionian, especially when the chords are moving so fast. Less ambiguous. A totally cool, a little more outside, is the Lydian #5. Throw that in randomly to add some different spice.
 
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