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Camper 112cx vs Matrix q12a vs Atomic CLR

LVC

Fractal Fanatic
Scott

By the tone of your earlier post and that fact you shut down a similar thread on the Gear Page I do not think you are happy about evaluation threads that include the CLR -- but the question still stands -- why does it sound different?


A patch (as you say whatever you put in) no matter how good or bad -- should sound the same through the cab using the DSP as prescribed based on how you place the cab. If you have to dial in the patch for the DSP setting and cab position -- why even have a DSP?



You are misunderstanding or at least miss-characterizing the use and purpose of the DSP and switches.

They are there to create a flat response in regards to the position and/or orientation (floor, mounted on a pole, etc). What this is designed to do, in my understanding and experience using it on dozens and dozens of gigs now over 9+ months of daily use, is to allow the user to get an accurate representation and presentation of whatever is input in regards to the physical realities of the practical application.

You dial your patch based on an accurate representation of what you are putting into the powered monitor. Whatever that is; this isn't guitar specific or modeler-centric.

Cabinets sound different depending on their physical position to how and where they are in a room. For instance the same speaker on the floor in the corner will sound very different in the middle of the room on a pole. The DSP settings allow for you to adjust to your physical space.
 

levipeto

Fractal Fanatic
If you have to dial in the patch for the DSP setting and cab position -- why even have a DSP?
Because, otherwise you would be running around screaming IT'S BOOMY!

This way you can easily add or remove bass depending on the position.

You know way too much about tone to make comments like that. I am surprised you don't demand DPS setting for carpet or concrete walls or corner placement, etc.

It's quiet obvious that you create preset for the position that you want to use your speakers. If you are dumb enough to do otherwise, no DSP will help you.
 

MikeAllenPugh

Inspired
Hmmm....at the moment, the CLR seems more like a nice vase rather than the Holy Grail. Still waiting for mine and really not sure about it now. A lot of money to spend to be disappointed. Maybe I'll just stay with the Matrix GT1000FX and trad cabs. Just not sold on it.
 

Scott Peterson

Global Moderator
Moderator
Scott

By the tone of your earlier post and that fact you shut down a similar thread on the Gear Page I do not think you are happy about evaluation threads that include the CLR -- but the question still stands -- why does it sound different?


A patch (as you say whatever you put in) no matter how good or bad -- should sound the same through the cab using the DSP as prescribed based on how you place the cab. If you have to dial in the patch for the DSP setting and cab position -- why even have a DSP?
There's no 'tone' in my posts and I didn't shut anything down on TGP. I do not moderate in the digital/modeling section of TGP and never have by choice. I do that to remove any question of impartiality. I'd thank you to please not continue to pursue that sort of accusation towards me.

I have a long history of offering very honest first person comparisons to all gear I use, review, test and own. So 'what I am happy about or not' here is of no consequence either.

I answered your question about the purpose of the settings and DSP as used in the CLR.

No speaker - CLR or otherwise; FRFR or otherwise - sounds the same depending on where it is placed in a room, proximity to the walls/floor/ceiling.

The DSP in the CLR is designed to account for those different types of different situations.
 

maschoff

Experienced
Thanks for this, you confirmed my suspicions. The FRFR offerings are almost to the point where their differences can only be heard by dogs.
 

jeppekristoffer

Power User
This is from the thread on TGP. Its written by Jay Mitchell and could maybe explain some things for you.


"Tutorial time. This has*nothing*to do with brand/model/type of loudspeaker andeverything*to do with basic physical principles that cannot be violated.When you place a speaker behind you on the floor and aimed horizontally, you can never produce similar sound quality for yourself (the player) and your audience. It matters not what type of speaker - guitar cab, PA monitor, etc. - the effect is the same. There are two underyling causes for this:1. Your ears are placed well outside the primary coverage pattern of the speaker. The narrower the coverage angle, the further outside of it you will be.2. The floor is well*within*the coverage pattern of the speaker, which means there will be a strong reflection from it. This reflection, which occurs quite early (always less than 5 milliseconds after the first arrival), causes effects which are completely different at the player's position than for the audience. It will cause huge peaks and notches in the response of the speaker (and, yes,*you can hear them), no matter where the listener is. The further you get out in front, the smaller the time gap between first arrival and floor reflection. This means that the frequencies at which peaks and notches occur are different in different positions and therefore*cannot be equalized.*EQ that makes the response better in one position will make it much worse everywhere else.For the above reasons, if you wish to produce similar sound quality both to yourself and your audience, you will not place your speaker on the floor aimed horizontally. The best approach (meaning the one that will produce the*best*sound quality to the*greatest number of listeners) is to treat it the same as a PA cab -*even if it is a guitar cab*- and elevate it above ear level and place it behind you. A less preferable - but still workable - approach is to place it on a short stand (or a chair). In this position, you will probably need to aim it upward somewhat so as to be within the speaker's coverage.***********Model-specific information follows*********************With all the above in mind, when we developed the "BL" ("backline") preset, made no effort to offset the effects of the floor reflection, since that is not possible. We*did,however level the overall spectral balance for a player of average height standing slightly less than six feet in front of the cab. If you use the speaker in this way and stand in this position, its overall spectral balance will be flat,*as it is with the other two presets when used as intended.*If you*hear*"bass boost" with a CLR the wedge position with the "Tilt" preset selected while standing on axis, thenthe signal you are applying to its input has boosted bass.*The CLR is not doing any of the boosting."
 

LVC

Fractal Fanatic
Thanks for this, you confirmed my suspicions. The FRFR offerings are almost to the point where their differences can only be heard by dogs.
I agree - they are pretty close across the board - the differences come down to form factor/weight and whatever marketing gimmick gizmos (good or bad) manufacturers add to the product
 

BBN

Fractal Fanatic
Maybe I am missing something here but wouldn't the objective of having a switch setting for different position be so that the cab sounds the same regardless of how you set it up for the same patch?

If you need to dial your patch in for that position and DSP setting -- then why bother with a DSP at all?

I don't think you're missing anything, and I understand and agree with your point.
If the speaker doesn't sound the same (when moved into a certain position, with the DSP set to that position), then one would argue that the DSP isn't doing what is intended.
But that doesn't mean that 'one of the positions' isn't dead flat.

My point was just that you can't say the CLR has 'too much or too little' bass (in any position) without measuring.
Too little or too much is subjective without measuring equipment, because we don't know if the patch has too much or too little bass.

The best we can say is that the CLR sounded inconsistent in regards to low end reproduction when positioning the speaker differently and using the compensating DSP.


I wonder what would have happened if the Matrix was flipped backwards a bit and used like a wedge?
 

Scott Peterson

Global Moderator
Moderator
I don't think you're missing anything, and I understand and agree with your point.
If the speaker doesn't sound the same (when moved into a certain position, with the DSP set to that position), then one would argue that the DSP isn't doing what is intended.
But that doesn't mean that 'one of the positions' isn't dead flat.

My point was just that you can't say the CLR has 'too much or too little' bass (in any position) without measuring.
Too little or too much is subjective without measuring equipment, because we don't know if the patch has too much or too little bass.

The best we can say is that the CLR sounded inconsistent in regards to low end reproduction when positioning the speaker differently and using the compensating DSP.


I wonder what would have happened if the Matrix was flipped backwards a bit and used like a wedge?
It'd be boomy and the world would implode. :D
 

LVC

Fractal Fanatic
I find his posts hilarious -- I read through all of this stuff.

Bottom line is trust your ears.

Take a patch (I suggest taking a patch from MrE's Amp bank set) and play it through a CLR using the prescribed DSP settings per position.

The patch will sound different in every position with the bass being cut or boosted.

I am not saying in any way that the cab sounds bad, as a matter of fact I thought it sounded damn good in the video -- but the fact is that the bass is added or cut in a noticeable way.

That is an indisputable fact -- that no forum rant or Power Point slide is going to explain away.

You are at a gig -- you change the DSP and your preset will sound different when you stand in front of the cab. End of story.

Now if you dial your preset for that position and DSP setting -- that is a different story -- but again that begs the question -- why have a DSP at all?








This is from the thread on TGP. Its written by Jay Mitchell and could maybe explain some things for you.


"Tutorial time. This has*nothing*to do with brand/model/type of loudspeaker andeverything*to do with basic physical principles that cannot be violated.When you place a speaker behind you on the floor and aimed horizontally, you can never produce similar sound quality for yourself (the player) and your audience. It matters not what type of speaker - guitar cab, PA monitor, etc. - the effect is the same. There are two underyling causes for this:1. Your ears are placed well outside the primary coverage pattern of the speaker. The narrower the coverage angle, the further outside of it you will be.2. The floor is well*within*the coverage pattern of the speaker, which means there will be a strong reflection from it. This reflection, which occurs quite early (always less than 5 milliseconds after the first arrival), causes effects which are completely different at the player's position than for the audience. It will cause huge peaks and notches in the response of the speaker (and, yes,*you can hear them), no matter where the listener is. The further you get out in front, the smaller the time gap between first arrival and floor reflection. This means that the frequencies at which peaks and notches occur are different in different positions and therefore*cannot be equalized.*EQ that makes the response better in one position will make it much worse everywhere else.For the above reasons, if you wish to produce similar sound quality both to yourself and your audience, you will not place your speaker on the floor aimed horizontally. The best approach (meaning the one that will produce the*best*sound quality to the*greatest number of listeners) is to treat it the same as a PA cab -*even if it is a guitar cab*- and elevate it above ear level and place it behind you. A less preferable - but still workable - approach is to place it on a short stand (or a chair). In this position, you will probably need to aim it upward somewhat so as to be within the speaker's coverage.***********Model-specific information follows*********************With all the above in mind, when we developed the "BL" ("backline") preset, made no effort to offset the effects of the floor reflection, since that is not possible. We*did,however level the overall spectral balance for a player of average height standing slightly less than six feet in front of the cab. If you use the speaker in this way and stand in this position, its overall spectral balance will be flat,*as it is with the other two presets when used as intended.*If you*hear*"bass boost" with a CLR the wedge position with the "Tilt" preset selected while standing on axis, thenthe signal you are applying to its input has boosted bass.*The CLR is not doing any of the boosting."
 

Scott Peterson

Global Moderator
Moderator
I find his posts hilarious -- I read through all of this stuff.

Bottom line is trust your ears.

Take a patch (I suggest taking a patch from MrE's Amp bank set) and play it through a CLR using the prescribed DSP settings per position.

The patch will sound different in every position with the bass being cut or boosted.

I am not saying in any way that the cab sounds bad, as a matter of fact I thought it sounded damn good in the video -- but the fact is that the bass is added or cut in a noticeable way.

That is an indisputable fact -- that no forum rant or Power Point slide is going to explain away.

You are at a gig -- you change the DSP and your preset will sound different when you stand in front of the cab. End of story.

Now if you dial your preset for that position and DSP setting -- that is a different story -- but again that begs the question -- why have a DSP at all?
You are an intelligent man and an experienced guitarist. Read the answers already posted answering your question. The DSP is designed to compensate for different physical orientations and different physical environments.
 

LVC

Fractal Fanatic
You are an intelligent man and an experienced guitarist. Read the answers already posted answering your question. The DSP is designed to compensate for different physical orientations and different physical environments.

Why is it so difficult for you to admit that the DSP simply adds and cuts bass instead insisting the it is some sort of "magic" enhancer when evidence does not bear that out?
 
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Semih Yanyali

Power User
Here is my 2 cents, i played both clr and i own q12 and gt1000fx. First off all they are both great products and they sound pretty close, similar to each other. U can dial a little and u get the same sound from both.
For me gt1000fx is great cos i can use traditional cabs and when i travel and play in other cities, countries i am more flexible and plus q12 weighs lighter than clr....thats all, sound vise...they are both the best what i used for axe and even for my samples and ableton stuff. They both sound close to my adam a5x studio monitors, but a little better for axe.
 

Scott Peterson

Global Moderator
Moderator
Why is it so difficult for you to admit that the DSP simply adds and cuts bass instead insisting the it is some sort of "magic" enhancer when evidence does not bear that out?
Nothing is difficult: I do not have any knowledge or expertise of what the DSP is or is not doing and neither do you. I didn't design it, and neither did you. I've never described anything as 'magic' nor expressed anything subjective to the discussion.

Why do you have more posts than anyone else on any thread with Atomic mentioned on this forum? (Objective observation and fact). Again, you are a smart man and an experienced guitarist with so much to share. You have so much to share and add; this vendetta of yours really serves no one.
 

toolfanem

Power User
Why is it so difficult for you to admit that the DSP simply adds and cuts bass instead insisting the it is some sort of "magic" enhancer when evidence does not bear that out?
This is very strange comment. The on-board DSP is cutting, boosting depending on changes in your environment, which is exactly what Scott said.

For example: Lets say you move your PA from a stand to and use it as a horizontal wedge on the floor. It is going to sound very different now. The DSP is used to boost cut certain frequencies to make up for that change. The company used there knowledge of different speaker setups common with FRFR and added a way to compensate on the speaker itself for environment changes. Asking for it to sound exactly the same with out ANY additional tweaking is not realistic. That would be asking for a perfect world scenario where the CLR's DSP settings exactly match your room characteristics.
 

cobbler

Fractal Fanatic
I find his posts hilarious -- I read through all of this stuff.
While I am not the biggest Jay Mitchell fan due to his "online" persona I most certainly respect his opinions when it comes to speakers. He has a pretty impressive resume and while you may not always agree with every point to call his posts hilarious is rather insulting IMHO.


Bottom line is trust your ears.

Take a patch (I suggest taking a patch from MrE's Amp bank set) and play it through a CLR using the prescribed DSP settings per position.

The patch will sound different in every position with the bass being cut or boosted.

I am not saying in any way that the cab sounds bad, as a matter of fact I thought it sounded damn good in the video -- but the fact is that the bass is added or cut in a noticeable way.
I am not expert but I would imagine the DSP settings were taken in a controlled room, meticulously measured, and with some assumptions being made such as the statement above where Jay stated "We did, however level the overall spectral balance for a player of average height standing slightly less than six feet in front of the cab".

So of course the DSP settings are going to differ with how you implement them and the surrounding room characteristics. So how much "perceived" bass addition or cutting has many dependencies. As they stated, from 6 feet away in their controlled room the CLR was flat. What I get from this is that its a good starting point if you are using your monitor in said configuration. It's common sense that you may need to do some minor adjustments to conform to your particular situation no?


That is an indisputable fact -- that no forum rant or Power Point slide is going to explain away.
What is being explained away? You make no sense here. The explanation was clear to me. At the DSP settings the monitor spec out as flat. What you or I may be actually hearing is the disputable part. Let's call a spade a spade here. You ranted incessantly about the boominess in your well known thread and even though dozens of posters who tried your patch and found it to be boomy on numerous systems in numerous rooms you could not accept that and blamed the CLR.


You are at a gig -- you change the DSP and your preset will sound different when you stand in front of the cab. End of story.
Duh! Why would you change the DSP setting if you haven't moved the monitor? You set it for the position that is appropriate with how you have your monitors placed. If you have to make some minor tweaks to compensate for a particular room then do so. The big tweaks for how the monitor is placed is done for you. That's a big plus in my humble opinion. Why you would switch the DSP if you haven't re-placed your speakers is beyond me. That it sounds different if you do is EXPECTED otherwise the various settings are worthless and do nothing. Duh Again!


Now if you dial your preset for that position and DSP setting -- that is a different story -- but again that begs the question -- why have a DSP at all?
Wow. I'll try again. And I am far from knowledgeable in the area but trying to just approach this from a common sense point of view. You create a preset. You have it dialed in how you like it. Lets say you do so in your studio and assume you have fairly flat monitoring solutions there. You now take your rig to a gig one day where you are using it as a wedge. Oh, I set it on the wedge setting and look. I have pretty much the identical sound from my studio with the small caveat that I might have to make s couple minor adjustments for said room. Damn! The backline solution isn't available tonight. I'll use my monitors in that scenario. Hmmmm, that sounds a little off and different than last night where I was using them as wedges. Oh, I have a DSP switch that compensates for that. How cool!

Why you imply that you would have to dial in your presets for the DSP settings is again beyond my humble brain. The whole premise is to be able to dial in your presets how you like them and have a monitoring solution that does not change them. In other words, what you put in is what you get out. But I totally get that you don't grasp that because you couldn't grasp it months ago when everyone told you have a boomy patch to begin with. I suppose its just easier to complain and insult experts contributions rather than admit you may have been wrong in the first place. To each his own.

Be happy that you have a solution that fills your needs.

Edit: While I was typing I see couple others posting similar responses. Sorry for he redundancy. :)
 
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Tom King

Experienced
To balance some of the speculation, here are some facts about the CLR:

The "Tilt" (Wedge) and "BL" (back line) presets in the CLR are both optimized in for a single person: the player. When you use the speaker as a floor monitor, you stand so that the speaker points up at your head (IOW, on axis). When you use it as backline, you will usually stand a few feet in front of the cab. In either case, if you use the speaker as described and select the appropriate preset, the sound you will hear will be tonally balanced.

In the video the camera mic was not positioned for either the "BL" or "Tilt" position. That is why it sounds different.

The CLRs presets are not limited to bass boosts and cuts. The filters are much more complex. Anyone with critical listening skills should be able to hear this by just listening to all three presets without changing the speakers orientation. Atomic never claimed the presets were "magic" (not sure where that came from) but they do work as described in the manual and as listed above. This has been noted by many actual CLR users some of whom, such as Pete Thorn, are quite well respected in this community.

If you wish to provide the same tonal balance to a large number of listeners, you should elevate the speaker and use the "FF" (free field) preset.

For specifics about the impact of floor reflections, listening pattern, etc. please refer to Jay's quote that was posted earlier in the thread.

Thanks!

-TK
 

LVC

Fractal Fanatic
Dude ... Dude Dude...

wow -- you really spent some time writing this post.


The bottom line is the the DSP adds and cuts bass in a dramatic way. All you have to do is try it for yourself.

The fact that it does is not disputable.

Anybody that approaches this in an honest way will concur.

Again... I thought the CLR sounded terrific in the video ... but please put the snake oil away.

Regarding Jay -- his rants are hilarious and if you want to take them seriously -- please do so.... I don't.





While I am not the biggest Jay Mitchell fan due to his "online" persona I most certainly respect his opinions when it comes to speakers. He has a pretty impressive resume and while you may not always agree with every point to call his posts hilarious is rather insulting IMHO.


Bottom line is trust your ears.



I am not expert but I would imagine the DSP settings were taken in a controlled room, meticulously measured, and with some assumptions being made such as the statement above where Jay stated "We did, however level the overall spectral balance for a player of average height standing slightly less than six feet in front of the cab".

So of course the DSP settings are going to differ with how you implement them and the surrounding room characteristics. So how much "perceived" bass addition or cutting has many dependencies. As they stated, from 6 feet away in their controlled room the CLR was flat. What I get from this is that its a good starting point if you are using your monitor in said configuration. It's common sense that you may need to do some minor adjustments to conform to your particular situation no?




What is being explained away? You make no sense here. The explanation was clear to me. At the DSP settings the monitor spec out as flat. What you or I may be actually hearing is the disputable part. Let's call a spade a spade here. You ranted incessantly about the boominess in your well known thread and even though dozens of posters who tried your patch and found it to be boomy on numerous systems in numerous rooms you could not accept that and blamed the CLR.




Duh! Why would you change the DSP setting if you haven't moved the monitor? You set it for the position that is appropriate with how you have your monitors placed. If you have to make some minor tweaks to compensate for a particular room then do so. The big tweaks for how the monitor is placed is done for you. That's a big plus in my humble opinion. Why you would switch the DSP if you haven't re-placed your speakers is beyond me. That it sounds different if you do is EXPECTED otherwise the various settings are worthless and do nothing. Duh Again!




Wow. I'll try again. And I am far from knowledgeable in the area but trying to just approach this from a common sense point of view. You create a preset. You have it dialed in how you like it. Lets say you do so in your studio and assume you have fairly flat monitoring solutions there. You now take your rig to a gig one day where you are using it as a wedge. Oh, I set it on the wedge setting and look. I have pretty much the identical sound from my studio with the small caveat that I might have to make s couple minor adjustments for said room. Damn! The backline solution isn't available tonight. I'll use my monitors in that scenario. Hmmmm, the don't sound at all like last night as I was using them as wedges. Oh, I have a DSP switch that compensates for that. How cool!

Why you imply that you would have to dial in your presets for the DSP settings is again beyond my humble brain. The whole premise is to be able to dial in your presets how you like them and have a monitoring solution that does not change them. In other words, what you put in is what you get out. But I totally get that you don't grasp that because you couldn't grasp it months ago when everyone told you have a boomy patch to begin with. I suppose its just easier to complain and insult experts contributions rather than admit you may have been wrong in the first place. To each his own.

Be happy that you have a solution that fills your needs.
 

toolfanem

Power User
The fact that it does is not disputable.

Anybody that approaches this in an honest way will concur.

[/B]
Such a subjective matter is ABSOLUTELY disputable. And I have been engineering for long enough to know that one mans opinion on "drastic" differences is never the same from person to person, even if they are being "honest". What a weird thread. There is no snake-oil anywhere. People are trying to help you out man.
 
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