Cab Packs Format - Why syx and not wav?

[LeviathanKiller]

Why are cab packs only available in syx format?
If Cab-Lab was used to generate wav files from the syx files, then Cab-Lab sales wouldn't be hurt and cab pack sales would go up (along with Cab-Lab sales since people would be buying it to do such conversions).

I haven't bought a cab pack yet because I can't use it with my other devices that I own as well whereas other commercial stuff offers their impulses in a more widely-supported format.

If there isn't a particular reason for locking these cab packs to the Axe-Fx (especially knowing the original captures are in wav format already likely), could we see this in the future possibly (and it be usable on existing cab packs)?

Or could we pay more to get them in wav in the first place?

Forgive me if this has been stated somewhere before. I searched via the forum search as well as site-specific and non-site-specific search using Google and could not find anything regarding the matter other than people requesting a tool to do such a thing but every thread ended with "there just isn't a tool for that" in so many words.

I figure I could have emailed Cliff and asked but surely I'm not the only one who has wondered this so if Cliff and or someone else "in the know" replies, everyone else will have the answer rather than just me only.

 

[2112]

Why are cab packs only available in syx format?
If Cab-Lab was used to generate wav files from the syx files, then Cab-Lab sales wouldn't be hurt and cab pack sales would go up (along with Cab-Lab sales since people would be buying it to do such conversions).

Syx files are considerably smaller than full resolution WAV's, so converting back from syx to WAV isn't going to be possible. Information is lost in the WAV-syx conversion (think WAV-mp3 in audio terms) which makes accurately recreating a WAV from a syx file nigh on impossible.

Regarding the cab packs being locked to the Axe-Fx, I imagine there's a licensing agreement between Fractal and the cab pack creators which locks them to the device. Companies like Ownhammer have IR libraries available in WAV format independently of the Fractal cab packs that will give you great results across multiple devices.

 

[Valhallir]

Why are cab packs only available in syx format?
If Cab-Lab was used to generate wav files from the syx files, then Cab-Lab sales wouldn't be hurt and cab pack sales would go up (along with Cab-Lab sales since people would be buying it to do such conversions).

I haven't bought a cab pack yet because I can't use it with my other devices that I own as well whereas other commercial stuff offers their impulses in a more widely-supported format.

If there isn't a particular reason for locking these cab packs to the Axe-Fx (especially knowing the original captures are in wav format already likely), could we see this in the future possibly (and it be usable on existing cab packs)?

Or could we pay more to get them in wav in the first place?

Forgive me if this has been stated somewhere before. I searched via the forum search as well as site-specific and non-site-specific search using Google and could not find anything regarding the matter other than people requesting a tool to do such a thing but every thread ended with "there just isn't a tool for that" in so many words.

I figure I could have emailed Cliff and asked but surely I'm not the only one who has wondered this so if Cliff and or someone else "in the know" replies, everyone else will have the answer rather than just me only.

It's all up to copy-limitations. If the IRs (like ours) were in wave-format, you could use them for any platform, like IR-plugins or other hardware modelling devices.

 

[LeviathanKiller]

Syx files are considerably smaller than full resolution WAV's, so converting back from syx to WAV isn't going to be possible. Information is lost in the WAV-syx conversion (think WAV-mp3 in audio terms) which makes accurately recreating a WAV from a syx file nigh on impossible.

Regarding the cab packs being locked to the Axe-Fx, I imagine there's a licensing agreement between Fractal and the cab pack creators which locks them to the device. Companies like Ownhammer have IR libraries available in WAV format independently of the Fractal cab packs that will give you great results across multiple devices.

I would assume so but my question is why? I highly doubt it boosts sales of the Axe-Fx. I believe it only serves to cut off potential revenue from people with other devices.

 

[Matt_B_77]

I bet it boosts sales of cab packs because they have the Fractal seal of approval.

 

[dr bonkers]

Cab-Lab only converts 1 way- from WAV to Fractal proprietary Syx and IR formats.

In a similar fashion, both KPA, Two Notes and L6 will convert WAV to their formats but not their proprietary formats back to WAV.

Cab-Lab only captures impulse responses in Fractal proprietary Syx and IR formats, never in WAV format. The effort to capture both within Cab Lab and via another method in order to capture WAV files increases the amount of effort and time exponentially in ways I cannot disclose legally.

It's kind of obvious that FAS wants to protect the intellectual property of their proprietary file formats from competitors. FAS,ML Soundlab, & York Audio offer exclusive FAS format impulse response packs.

Both Ownhammer and I do offer Fractal packs and WAV impulse response packs, but we can only offer them in such a way to protect FAS's formats, which is totally fair from my perspective as an ir producer. That is a price for admission in any sandbox and FAS has a great sandbox to play in IMHO.

Many others like @funkstation777 and other esteemed colleagues in the industry produce only WAV files in a variety of lengths/sample rates that will be used in a variety of hardware and software including FAS products.

So there is a choice for the consumer that wants impulse responses to be compatible across multiple hardware or software versus being committed to the FAS format only.

 

[LeviathanKiller]

Cab-Lab only converts 1 way- from WAV to Fractal proprietary Syx and IR formats.

In a similar fashion, both KPA, Two Notes and L6 will convert WAV to their formats but not their proprietary formats back to WAV.

Cab-Lab only captures impulse responses in Fractal proprietary Syx and IR formats, never in WAV format. The effort to capture both within Cab Lab and via another method in order to capture WAV files increases the amount of effort and time exponentially in ways I cannot disclose legally.

It's kind of obvious that FAS wants to protect the intellectual property of their proprietary file formats from competitors. FAS,ML Soundlab, & York Audio offer exclusive FAS format impulse response packs.

Both Ownhammer and I do offer Fractal packs and WAV impulse response packs, but we can only offer them in such a way to protect FAS's formats, which is totally fair from my perspective as an ir producer. That is a price for admission in any sandbox and FAS has a great sandbox to play in IMHO.

Many others like @funkstation777 and other esteemed colleagues in the industry produce only WAV files in a variety of lengths/sample rates that will be used in a variety of hardware and software including FAS products.

So there is a choice for the consumer that wants impulse responses to be compatible across multiple hardware or software versus being committed to the FAS format only.

That's enlightening although it doesn't necessarily answer the question of Why syx to begin with? Is there some benefit to that format over WAV other than size? Most people don't have a lack of storage for some impulses on their PC. The storage doesn't matter on the Axe-Fx since it converts to WAV to syx when you load it onto the device.

I've never seen any marketing literature explaining the benefits of using the syx format over WAV as the original "recording" format. So until that's answered, it's not understandable as to why you would create them in syx format in the first place, when you could in WAV format and then just convert them. It also doesn't seem infeasible to request from IR makers that certain sets of WAV impulses that you make exclusively for Fractal, be available for sale only through Fractal.

Basically, I don't understand the reasoning behind using a proprietary format on a product (that has the potential to be used in a lot of places) as a means of gaining exclusive sales. Why not just use some kind of legal agreement for the WAV files to be Fractal-store-exclusive?

If I can pay $30 (price of most of the cab packs) and use a cab pack on my Axe-Fx. What benefit is gained from keeping me from using them elsewhere? It can't be a monetary benefit because here I am, someone who isn't buying cab packs because of their lack of usability elsewhere (and I'm not the only one). So, if there is some non-monetary benefit, what is it and would it be doable to pay an extra/higher fee to provide Fractal with a monetary benefit in exchange for the other?

Mesa and others don't keep you from using their cabs with other brands' amps. They make money from you buying their cabinet regardless of what amp you buy to play through it. So why is Fractal doing this digitally?

 

[dr bonkers]

That's enlightening although it doesn't necessarily answer the question of Why syx to begin with? Is there some benefit to that format over WAV other than size? Most people don't have a lack of storage for some impulses on their PC. The storage doesn't matter on the Axe-Fx since it converts to WAV to syx when you load it onto the device.

I've never seen any marketing literature explaining the benefits of using the syx format over WAV as the original "recording" format. So until that's answered, it's not understandable as to why you would create them in syx format in the first place, when you could in WAV format and then just convert them. It also doesn't seem infeasible to request from IR makers that certain sets of WAV impulses that you make exclusively for Fractal, be available for sale only through Fractal.

Basically, I don't understand the reasoning behind using a proprietary format on a product (that has the potential to be used in a lot of places) as a means of gaining exclusive sales. Why not just use some kind of legal agreement for the WAV files to be Fractal-store-exclusive?

If I can pay $30 (price of most of the cab packs) and use a cab pack on my Axe-Fx. What benefit is gained from keeping me from using them elsewhere?

Think of it this way, an exclusive format encourages people to buy into the hardware or exclusive software to take advantage of the exclusive file format. A general format does not encourage someone to buy the hardware or exclusive software in order to use the exclusive content.

Line 6 does this, Kemper does this, Yamaha does this, Two Notes does this, so if you think FAS would put themselves at a competitive disadvantage in terms of exclusive content for their proprietary platform, then you need to think of this as a business owner rather than an end user.

With the amount of stuff FAS gives end users for free in terms of new FW, there needs to be some revenue stream for them other than chasing Cab Lab or hardware sales. Exclusive content Cab Packs are one way Fractal is able to offer customer service and Firmware updates at a level unprecedented with other manufacturers as well as generate future sales of hardware and proprietary software, just as other manufacturers do..

The Wiki will give you the advantages of Ultra-Res format if you have not reviewed it already.

No one is forcing you to buy impulse responses in a proprietary Fractal format. If you do not want to be locked into a Fractal proprietary format, as I outlined previously, there are scores of impulse response providers who offer wav file format impulse responses that can be used both with Fractal and other hardware/software devices.

There have been other threads on this forum in the past where this has been discussed.

 

[dr bonkers]

Do you own a Fractal product or are you desiring to use Fractal Cab Packs in a Digitech GSP1101 or other manufacturer's hardware platform?

Just curious.

You have been a member since 2011, but out of four posts to date, your only other thread participation on this forum involved a single thread whose topic was converting FAS ir's to use with other manufacturer's hardware.

 

[LeviathanKiller]

Yes, I own an Axe-Fx II XL+ but I also own a Kemper too. I haven't had the time for forums for a very long time until recently.
I want to make it clear that I am someone invested in Fractal and that I am very interested in seeing them be successful. I have no reason for them not to be. I wouldn't have an Axe-Fx without them.

I know this is long, but hopefully, it explains things fully.

--------------------------------


I strongly believe they would increase revenue by having a more universal product. I'd personally pay more for it. Just because they make it available in a more universal format doesn't mean they can't be exclusive to them being the sole source for attaining that product. If they make the sale, who cares what the user does with it afterwards?
I know I could profile the Axe-Fx to get the cab I wanted onto the Kemper and use Cab-Lab for recording, but this isn't about just my particular situation.

I just don't understand the gain from their implementation on this and it frustrates me knowing it could be done better.

Think of it this way, an exclusive format encourages people to buy into the hardware or exclusive software to take advantage of the exclusive file format. A general format does not encourage someone to buy the hardware or exclusive software in order to use the exclusive content.

Who is going to buy an Axe-Fx or AX8 just because of the third party cab packs it has available?
The Axe-Fx is considerably more impressive than the cab packs so why would cab packs be the thing that people focus on when considering the purchase?
I doubt anyone is going to be "These cab packs are awesome. Gotta buy an Axe-Fx so I can buy and use these."
Or maybe they do? I don't know. I'd bet on them buying someone else's impulse responses though.
Also, adding WAV would open the door for sales from everyone who owns the older Axe-Fx units (Standard and Ultra). Those aren't going to pop out of existence so why not sell to your legacy audience too? The newer Axe-Fx units have a multitude of features to offer. The cab packs aren't needed to get someone to upgrade and they probably won't. Legacy device users will just get someone else's IRs which means a lost sale for Fractal. Those people and everyone else with other devices are just going to go buy another manufacturer's impulses. Why not take advantage of the opportunity and make the sale instead of seeing them go elsewhere?

Line 6 does this, Kemper does this, Yamaha does this, Two Notes does this, so if you think FAS would put themselves at a competitive disadvantage in terms of exclusive content for their proprietary platform, then you need to think of this as a business owner rather than an end user.

I am thinking of this from a business owner's perspective. My goal would be to sell to the largest audience. They have encryption on syx files. Encrypt the WAV format section of the cab pack archive, and have a paid decrypter for that instead or just have a pack with the WAVs at a higher price.

There are several companies that sell products fully knowing that they may be used in conjunction with another manufacturer's product. Being business-savvy, they allow this to happen because it makes them more money. Fractal happens to be one of those. We wouldn't have the FX8 if Fractal weren't desiring to sell to an audience that uses amps and devices other than the Axe-Fx amp models. I know the FX8 has taken away sales from the other Fractal products without a doubt because I've seen it myself. That happening is completely okay though because they brought in sales from a large audience they previously weren't reaching which offset that minority of lost sales.

With the amount of stuff FAS gives end users for free in terms of new FW, there needs to be some revenue stream for them other than chasing Cab Lab or hardware sales. Exclusive content Cab Packs are one way Fractal is able to offer customer service and Firmware updates at a level unprecedented with other manufacturers as well as generate future sales of hardware and proprietary software, just as other manufacturers do..

They don't have to be in a proprietary format in order to sell them or for people to buy them. I'm not saying they should do away with these exclusive cab packs but that they should rework the way that they license/sell/offer them.

The Wiki will give you the advantages of Ultra-Res format if you have not reviewed it already.

IIRC: A detailed (long) enough WAV converts to Ultra-Res when loaded on the Axe-Fx. I'm pretty sure I've even loaded some in the past that have done that since I had several that showed up in italics.
One of the store web pages even says "The OwnHammer Studio Mix UltraRes collection includes every IR in the OwnHammer Studio Mix Libraries (as of Feb 7, 2014). They have been re-created in the new UltraRes format based on original full-resolution captures."
That implies that they were created from the original WAVs.

No one is forcing you to buy impulse responses in a proprietary Fractal format. If you do not want to be locked into a Fractal proprietary format, as I outlined previously, there are scores of impulse response providers who offer wav file format impulse responses that can be used both with Fractal and other hardware/software devices.

My personal interest in this matter (which isn't my main focus at this point) is that I want Misha's cab packs but I want to use them on all of my devices for consistency. I know there are convoluted ways I have of getting the cabs where I want them but I'd rather pay Fractal and the IR manufacturer more to not have to do that. If I buy what's available now (assuming I have Cab-Lab), I can use them on my Axe-Fx and in Cab-Lab. Fractal didn't make an additional sale from them having it in that proprietary format. They made a sale because that cab pack has impulses that are exclusively sold through Fractal, but not because of their proprietary format (that WAV files could be converted into).

You're suggesting I go elsewhere for my needs causing Fractal to lose a sale when I'm proposing something that allows Fractal to make money from my sale instead as well as a lot of other people's.

Keep the exclusivity of the cab packs but allow for the unlocking of the included WAVs format through Cab-Lab or a similarly-priced decrypter.
That results in more sales.