Cab Block Last?

Texhex

Texhex

Inspired
I posted this over on TGP as well but wanted to ask the same question here too and find out from the FAS perspective. Also, nothing against TGP but I feel like I’m going to get a more informed answer here as opposed to there.

“Why do I see almost all modelers (Helix, Fractal, etc.) setting the Cab block right after the Amp block and then effects after the Cab block? Why isn’t the Cab block dead last in the chain? Isn’t that more akin to a real world signal chain? Does placing the Cab block last alter the tone in the signal chain different than placing it directly after the Amp block?”

In the AX8 manual (page 17) the Cab block used in the diagram showing last in the signal chain when sending Output 1 to FOH and using a FXLoop to send to power amp. Most all other times I see the Cab block used directly after the Amp block. Any real reason not to place the Cab block last?
 
None! it really doesn't make a difference with respect to the tone. It's more of a convenience thing for routing if you happen to be building a preset that is more complex than a traditional signal path.
 
Doens't matter, but guitarist are creatures of habit, who like things the "traditional" way, even when it doesn't matter, just seems like the "right" place for it
 
Sixstring said:
None! it really doesn't make a difference with respect to the tone. It's more of a convenience thing for routing if you happen to be building a preset that is more complex than a traditional signal path.
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lqdsnddist said:
Doens't matter, but guitarist are creatures of habit, who like things the "traditional" way, even when it doesn't matter, just seems like the "right" place for it
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Not quite true from what I've seen posted by Fractal... It doesn't matter for "linear" effects (like delays, reverbs and other time-based stuff). It can affect things for other types of effects.

However, most of us only run time-based stuff after the Amp anyway.
 
Texhex said:
Why isn’t the Cab block dead last in the chain? Isn’t that more akin to a real world signal chain?
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What do you mean by that? In a studio, many effects are added after the Cab (technically, after the mic and mic preamp) - in particular the time-based stuff.

Might not be how you do it live because there is no practical way to do that if you want effects coming out of your guitar cab (you could with monitors or IEMs).
 
unix-guy said:
What do you mean by that? In a studio, many effects are added after the Cab (technically, after the mic and mic preamp) - in particular the time-based stuff.

Might not be how you do it live because there is no practical way to do that if you want effects coming out of your guitar cab (you could with monitors or IEMs).
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If you think just in terms of amp, effects loop gear, power amp and cab it makes sense, but as you accurately point out, in reality the cab isn’t really last in the real world as effects can be added at the mixing desk with mic’d cabs and obviously most studio work adds effects in post, often from a reamp’d DI, as you don’t want to be stuck with the wrong reverb or delay etc on an otherwise perfect take.
 
This discussion is missing one important point, hinted at by @Random Hero. Whenever effect order does not matter sonically— that is, when the "post" effects are not adding any overtones or distortion or high frequencies (such as when pitch shifting is used) — it is cheaper in terms of DSP to process the cab block in mono (before effects) than it is in stereo (after effects).
 
Thanks everyone. Great tips on Cab block placement and a few things I didn’t even consider (studio vs. live).
 
There have been a wide variety of "real world" signal chains. It's nice to have that range of choices in the AX8. As early as the late 70's I saw live bands that would split the guitar signal and send one feed to an amp for just the time based effects and the other to another amp for the core guitar tone. And has been pointed out many time in FAS threads: Most guitar tones beyond the club stage since the 60s have some sort of post processing, whether its a recording or miking for the PA and EQ and compression for touring.

Any and all effects will sound at least somewhat different depending on where they are in the chain. Some effects sound better before the amp, some in the amp (bias tremolo), some between amp and cab, some in post. Complex reverbs, multi-delays, enhancer seldom sound their best to my ear unless they are after the cabinet. Rotary Speaker can't even get close to convincing unless its post and in stereo. OTOH, Spring reverbs surf best in front of the amp or between amp & cab. Compressors, chorus, phasing, flanging, delay etc. have usefully distinctive qualities in each position of the signal chain. Luckily: its easy to compare stuff in AX8 Edit by just changing the order of the blocks in a preset and going with what excites your ear.
 
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The most natural sound is to have time based effects come after the cab, because, if you were relying on the room to give you that (Reverb and delay) it would be physically impossible for those to be applied at any point except for after the cab.
 
I like being able to easily change the positions of the blocks with the AX8 EDIT.

But at the end, I always do it like in analog life: guitar, drives, amp, cab, delay, reverb...

Excepting than in analog life I used to run delay and reverb in the effect loop (that's before the power amp and cab). Mainly because i couldn't try them after the cab or power amp (I could try them between power amp and cab if I had a Bad Cat Unleash V2 or something like that, but they are not cheap and I didn't think I needed the other utilities it has).
 
To me the reverb sounds different if I have them before or after a cab when running a stereo cab. I only get the reverb in stereo if I put it after the cab.
 
southbeck said:
To me the reverb sounds different if I have them before or after a cab when running a stereo cab. I only get the reverb in stereo if I put it after the cab.
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I think you might have to change the input mode of the cab block to stereo...
 
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