C minor 11 b5 chord

grandinq

Power User
I’m playing guitar in the pit band for Grease at the high school I teach at. I started going through Hopelessly Devoted to You yesterday and saw a C minor 11 b5 chord. I googled it but all I found was minor 11 voicing and and those left out the fifth which can’t work as I need that b5

I am no jazz guitarist so these are the chords that totally stump me. Anyone have any insight?
 
Hmmm, the 11th is the same as the 4th, and the b5 is a half step above that, super dissonant if they're both actually played. As to how you'd voice and finger that, no idea, but we both could work out some options.

Given what song it is, it's not leaning on it as a massive clash I'm sure, so it's probably not super important. Sleazy answer, but probably true.
 
Hmmm, the 11th is the same as the 4th, and the b5 is a half step above that, super dissonant if they're both actually played. As to how you'd voice and finger that, no idea, but we both could work out some options.

Given what song it is, it's not leaning on it as a massive clash I'm sure, so it's probably not super important. Sleazy answer, but probably true.
11th is the 4th an octave higher...

So 11th relative to a b5 is a major 7th interval... Not the same as 4 to b5 which is a minor 2nd interval.
 
11th is the 4th an octave higher...

So 11th relative to a b5 is a major 7th interval... Not the same as 4 to b5 which is a minor 2nd interval.


That’s what I’ve been thinking about. I need the third in there to the minor, the flat five and the 11. So at minimum that’s Eb, Gb and then an F above those.
 
This thread reminds me of my time in community college jazz band. I had just started playing guitar about a year or 2 earlier, so I didn't yet know a lot about chords. I knew the differences between a minor/major/dom 7, for example, but I didn't know "typical" chord voicings for chords like 6/9, maj11, b5, etc. So I would take my limited knowledge of music theory, and try to "construct" my own chords, trying to cram the root, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 13th, whatever, all into the chord.

The band director stopped us once and asked me to play a certain chord, and he almost laughed at what I had come up with. He told me, You've got the bass guitar and piano also helping, so I didn't have to have every note in every chord! :tearsofjoy: He also told me it was fine to invert the root, or not even play it at all, but instead just get the other notes. I asked him, How do I know what is ok to not play, and/or how to voice a particular chord? He was like, That's when you just gotta use your ear, and play a voicing that works within the context. He said it would be good for me to learn all sorts of various chord forms, so I'd have a pallette to choose from when deciding what to play.

That was about the time I decided Led Zeppelin was easier! :tearsofjoy:
 
The band director stopped us once and asked me to play a certain chord, and he almost laughed at what I had come up with. He told me, You've got the bass guitar and piano also helping, so I didn't have to have every note in every chord! :tearsofjoy: He also told me it was fine to invert the root, or not even play it at all, but instead just get the other notes. I asked him, How do I know what is ok to not play, and/or how to voice a particular chord? He was like, That's when you just gotta use your ear, and play a voicing that works within the context. He said it would be good for me to learn all sorts of various chord forms, so I'd have a pallette to choose from when deciding what to play.

That was about the time I decided Led Zeppelin was easier! :tearsofjoy:

Great point! Zep is easier. :)

Actually, great point about the lesson your band director gave you. So much depends on the other instruments (what they
are playing) along with what chords are both before and after the specific chord in question.

Sometimes I think guitar players are always playing in a power trio in their heads. ;)

I remember grabbing this book because it was mentioned in a guitar magazine, and not knowing
what the f**k to make of it. I think I ordered it out of the back of one of those magazines.


900597000000000-00-500x500.jpg
 
This is actually a pretty common jazz voicing... often used as the II chord when doing a II-V-I to Bbm. I'd suggest this...
That said... I'm confident you could get away with playing a Cm7b5 voicing, and not bother with the "F" note.
 

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I’m playing guitar in the pit band for Grease at the high school I teach at. I started going through Hopelessly Devoted to You yesterday and saw a C minor 11 b5 chord. I googled it but all I found was minor 11 voicing and and those left out the fifth which can’t work as I need that b5

I am no jazz guitarist so these are the chords that totally stump me. Anyone have any insight?
I played guitar in a big-band for a couple years, and got to learn from one of the top jazz guitarists in town. Things I learned from him and the experience and that have stuck with me are:
  • On a keyboard it's pretty easy to lay out a chord like Cm11b5, and it could be played as a cluster or spread out. On the guitar in standard tuning and 6 strings, and having, at best, five fingers to fret, it becomes more difficult.
  • Trying to describe a keyboardist mashing on a bunch of adjacent keys as a chord too often fails miserably.
  • Our part in a band or orchestra setting is not to hit every note, but to hit the ones that get the flavor of the chord, so simplifying is useful and important. The other instruments will be covering other parts of the chord so the overall effect will be there.
  • A guitar in standard tuning is basically Em11, i.e., E, A, D, G, B, E, it's just not laid out as we'd expect in theory which would be E, G, B, D, A. Moving that to the 8th fret would be a barre Cm11. The easiest Gb to reach would be on the B string, 1/2 step lower but the fingering is a pain.
  • Talk to the piano player/conductor/band-leader when encountering things like this and ask which notes they want emphasized.
  • You might be able to get away with a Cm7b5 which is infinitely easier to finger. See https://www.8notes.com/guitar_chord_chart/Cm7b5.asp
  • Ted Greene says a "Cm6/9 = Am7b5/11= F13 (no root) = B7 #9 + (no root)". Move up three frets to Cm7b5/11.
 
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Great point! Zep is easier. :)

Actually, great point about the lesson your band director gave you. So much depends on the other instruments (what they
are playing) along with what chords are both before and after the specific chord in question.

Sometimes I think guitar players are always playing in a power trio in their heads. ;)

I remember grabbing this book because it was mentioned in a guitar magazine, and not knowing
what the f**k to make of it. I think I ordered it out of the back of one of those magazines.


900597000000000-00-500x500.jpg
Ted Green's Chord Chemistry is an amazing book. I had a beloved copy that disappeared during a divorce. :-(

I finally found it as a PDF and bought it and now I love it and hug it and make it my own.
 
Cm7b5 is an old friend. I know that from my guitar lessons years ago with all the 7th chord voicings.

I’m definitely going to chat with the conductor; he’s a colleague in school. I’m general he’s given me free reign in voicings and rhythms.
 
This thread reminds me of my time in community college jazz band. I had just started playing guitar about a year or 2 earlier, so I didn't yet know a lot about chords. I knew the differences between a minor/major/dom 7, for example, but I didn't know "typical" chord voicings for chords like 6/9, maj11, b5, etc. So I would take my limited knowledge of music theory, and try to "construct" my own chords, trying to cram the root, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 13th, whatever, all into the chord.
The band director stopped us once and asked me to play a certain chord, and he almost laughed at what I had come up with. He told me, You've got the bass guitar and piano also helping, so I didn't have to have every note in every chord! :tearsofjoy: He also told me it was fine to invert the root, or not even play it at all, but instead just get the other notes. I asked him, How do I know what is ok to not play, and/or how to voice a particular chord? He was like, That's when you just gotta use your ear, and play a voicing that works within the context. He said it would be good for me to learn all sorts of various chord forms, so I'd have a pallette to choose from when deciding what to play.

That was about the time I decided Led Zeppelin was easier! :tearsofjoy:


That’s such a great point he had!

I think this chord particularly threw me because so many of the Grease songs are classic rock n roll blues figures. You can tell this song didn’t come from the original Broadway
 
That’s what I’ve been thinking about. I need the third in there to the minor, the flat five and the 11. So at minimum that’s Eb, Gb and then an F above those.
You probably also want the 7th in there...

Also don't forget that what the bass is playing will (help) define the overall harmony...

If the bass plays a C then you could probably leave out the root ;)
 
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