Buying and using full range speakers: A few basics

solo-act said:
rsm said:
Joe, I have a similar issue with active FRFRs (which I'm selling my no-longer-used rack amp gear for) not having enough inputs. I need to support bass, guitar and keyboards which I want to have in stereo too, so I'm looking into getting a rack line mixer like this Behringer http://www.behringer.com/RX1602/index.cfm?lang=ENG... I have the 2 balanced outs from my Ultra, I have a single DI out on my bass preamp that I will split into L & R, and stereo out for my keys which means I need 3 stereo channels at a minimum.

Peace
Click to expand...
Here's an idea Small footprint, maximum versatility and decent quality for the price. I've seen channels fail quite a bit on those behringers. Soundcraft makes small boards too, but nothing as small as the mackie.
Click to expand...

Solo, sorry I should have stated I'm looking for a rack mount unit not a table top version in line mixer, but the link you provided looks like it has everything I need, thanks! Also, thanks for the warning on the Behringer - similar to what I've read - appears to be a quality control issue - people that get a working unit love 'em.

Great post with great info on things to consider when selecting a FRFR.

Peace.
 
rsm said:
joegold said:
It seems like the majority of folks here like to use a powered monitor rather than a powered mixer plus passive FRFR cabinet(s) or a keyboard amp.

Having experimented with keyboard amps myself, I can see that they are not high-end enough to do the AFX justice.

My problem with powered monitors is that if I decide to go 100% FRFR I'll want to be able to do electric guitar, acoustic guitar and synth guitar all with the same amplification system, and powered monitors don't usually have several inputs with individual EQ on each input.

So, *I'll* probably have to go with a powered mixer (or separate mixer/poweramp) plus passive FRFR monitors.
And I was wondering if anyone out there would recommend a powered mixer that is rack mountable (lightweight would be nice) and up to the task of doing the AFX justice?
Click to expand...

Joe, I have a similar issue with active FRFRs (which I'm selling my no-longer-used rack amp gear for) not having enough inputs. I need to support bass, guitar and keyboards which I want to have in stereo too, so I'm looking into getting a rack line mixer like this Behringer http://www.behringer.com/RX1602/index.cfm?lang=ENG though I've heard mixed reviews on their gear? I'd like something with XLR ins/outs not just 1/4" TRS but most mixers seem to use XLR for mic level not line level inputs. So, I'm looking at line mixers, this Behringer has 8 stereo channels (16 ins), but I'll need to get XLR- 1/4" TRS adapters to use them. I'd be interested in what you think? Active cabs with a line mixer seems to be the simplest option for me: I have the 2 balanced outs from my Ultra, I have a single DI out on my bass preamp that I will split into L & R, and stereo out for my keys which means I need 3 stereo channels at a minimum.

Peace
Click to expand...

I actually already own one of those Behringer line mixers.
It's pretty good. Seemed real transparent at the time I was fooling with it. I was using it to set up a parallel FX loop for my Triaxis, but then I got a DMC System Mix Plus instead. The SMP has a MIDI controlled VCA that I use for a volume pedal with the Triaxis. So the line mixer is just sitting around.

Ideally, I'd like to have a mixer with some EQ which the Behringer doesn't have, but I still might use it with the AFX for my FRFR goals.
Eg. I may be buying an ART SLA2 reference power amp which will work great with a guitar cab or FRFR cabs. So, if I have a gig where I need to use ekectric guitar, guitar synth and/or acoustic guitar I could just run all 3 into the line mixer first, then into the SLA2. The only thing that really needs extra EQ is the acoustic guitar, but it might be fine with its built-in EQ.

Still working out how I'm gonna be using my Ultra.
It's like a Swiss army knife. So many ways to use it.
 
rsm said:
...sorry I should have stated I'm looking for a rack mount unit not a table top version in line mixer, but the link you provided looks like it has everything I need, thanks! Also, thanks for the warning on the Behringer - similar to what I've read - appears to be a quality control issue - people that get a working unit love 'em.
Click to expand...
I've rigged mine to ride inside the rack and leave it where only the channel mix knobs poke out...more like a rack mixer I simply slide it out a little if I need to make any gain structure or EQ adjustments which is rare. Kinda wierd, but it works fine. And talk about maximum options in minimum space with minimum weight...
Here, take a look.
Even without right angle XLR and 1/4" connectors it only uses 3 rack spaces of space because it sits in the bottom of the rack and doesn't use a drawer.

Believe me, I've researched the rackmount solution and there isn't a rackmount mixer that isn't bulky or expensive or limited in EQ, routing, inserts, channels, build quality, etc.

I needed tiny footprint, insert, 3 band eq, aux, pan, channels, submix, monitor out, and affordability. I have yet to find a rackmount mixer that matches those needs.
None of these has that feature set.
http://www.soundcraft.com/product_sheet ... duct_id=90
http://rane.com/mlm42s.html
http://www.ashly.com/product/mx-406.htm
http://www.mackie.com/products/dx8/index.html
http://www.allen-heath.com/US/DisplayPr ... p?pview=63
http://www.alesis.com/imultimix9r
http://www.alesis.com/imultimix9r
http://www.alesis.com/multimix12r
 
^^^^

Thank you veeery much for this post, Eric!
I have been searching for a rackmount mixer and still am, so any insights and information is highly apreciated!

Seb
 
rsm said:
Thanks, Solo! More gear research to do...again! :?

Peace.
Click to expand...
Sebastian said:
^^^^

Thank you veeery much for this post, Eric!
I have been searching for a rackmount mixer and still am, so any insights and information is highly apreciated!

Seb
Click to expand...
Just a heads up, none of those rackmount mixers in that list matched my needs. If you can handle bulky, expensive, or lacking build quality, insert, 3 band eq, pan, low end rolloff, channels etc, then you might want one from that list.
 
foray01 said:
Solo act,
excellent posts!! i'm also into line mixers, but still researching for best bang for the buck.
Have you check out the Rolls line mixers at http://www.rolls.com/
Click to expand...
Rolls rack stuff has the same problem with limited features. You don't see Rolls in studios, clubs or tours so I'll guess their components are on the budget side. There's several manufacturers I left out for those same reasons. However, they make a lot of unique stuff when it comes to signal routing options.

Bottom line, unless you're ready to spend for the mackie 2-space digital rack mixer (which has the wrong connectors on the back & is overkill, not to mention heavy), or the soundcraft rack mixer (which is big & heavy), I'd think about the Ashley MX-406, but that ain't cheap either. But at least you're not insulting the axe-fx with a cheap, low quality signal chain.

You can get more features with decent signal path & build quality in those mackie VLZ3 boards for a fraction of the weight, a lower cost, and a smaller footprint. Just secure it into the rack. The 802-vlz3 is so tiny you wouldn't even need to mount it to a sliding drawer. The 1202 could be mounted to a drawer and you'd still be under the weight/cost/price/size ratio of any of the decent rack mixers out there. BTW, the rubber feet on these VLZ3 boards screw into the chassis, so you could send bolts through a rack drawer and really lock it down.

Rack mixers look cooler, but your back and wallet will thank you for getting a quality full-featured mini-mixer.

Take another look at my setup:
img_4669.jpg

I mounted brackets from the hardware store to the bottom of the rack. You can see one on the left side of the board. Two brackets hold the rack in place horizontal and vertical on the left side, and the actual rack handle (in black) intrudes into the inside of the rack and holds the board in place on the right side (the board fits perfectly under it). Even carried upside down, the board inputs don't hit the rack spaces above.

No, it doesn't look as cool as a rack mixer, but take another look at all the stuff crammed into this 802 board. I run mono so I can go small, but even this tiny thing lets me mix voice, backing tracks and axe-fx no problemo.

To get an idea of how much stuff you can run through it, look at the pretty pictures. :cool:

That's a lotta stuff and routability for a small board. I'm putting a lot more than guitar frequencies through it and it sounds great live. I wanted a tiny board with these features in 1997, but it didn't exist. This 802-VLZ3 just came out in '08.

Long story short, this mackie isn't gourmet, but it has the best price/quality/size/weight/features ratio I could find. You can get them for $200 now. I'd secure it well and treat it the same as the axe-fx. At $200, you could carry a spare in the trunk of your car and be worry free.
 
solo-act said:
foray01 said:
Solo act,
excellent posts!! i'm also into line mixers, but still researching for best bang for the buck.
Have you check out the Rolls line mixers at http://www.rolls.com/
Click to expand...
Rolls rack stuff has the same problem with limited features. You don't see Rolls in studios, clubs or tours so I'll guess their components are on the budget side. There's several manufacturers I left out for those same reasons. However, they make a lot of unique stuff when it comes to signal routing options.

Bottom line, unless you're ready to spend for the mackie 2-space digital rack mixer (which has the wrong connectors on the back & is overkill, not to mention heavy), or the soundcraft rack mixer (which is big & heavy), I'd think about the Ashley MX-406, but that ain't cheap either. But at least you're not insulting the axe-fx with a cheap, low quality signal chain.

You can get more features with decent signal path & build quality in those mackie VLZ3 boards for a fraction of the weight, a lower cost, and a smaller footprint. Just secure it into the rack. The 802-vlz3 is so tiny you wouldn't even need to mount it to a sliding drawer. The 1202 could be mounted to a drawer and you'd still be under the weight/cost/price/size ratio of any of the decent rack mixers out there. BTW, the rubber feet on these VLZ3 boards screw into the chassis, so you could send bolts through a rack drawer and really lock it down.

Rack mixers look cooler, but your back and wallet will thank you for getting a quality full-featured mini-mixer.

Take another look at my setup:
img_4669.jpg

I mounted brackets from the hardware store to the bottom of the rack. You can see one on the left side of the board. Two brackets hold the rack in place horizontal and vertical on the left side, and the actual rack handle (in black) intrudes into the inside of the rack and holds the board in place on the right side (the board fits perfectly under it). Even carried upside down, the board inputs don't hit the rack spaces above.

No, it doesn't look as cool as a rack mixer, but take another look at all the stuff crammed into this 802 board. I run mono so I can go small, but even this tiny thing lets me mix voice, backing tracks and axe-fx no problemo.

To get an idea of how much stuff you can run through it, look at the pretty pictures. :cool:

That's a lotta stuff and routability for a small board. I'm putting a lot more than guitar frequencies through it and it sounds great live. I wanted a tiny board with these features in 1997, but it didn't exist. This 802-VLZ3 just came out in '08.

Long story short, this mackie isn't gourmet, but it has the best price/quality/size/weight/features ratio I could find. You can get them for $200 now. I'd secure it well and treat it the same as the axe-fx. At $200, you could carry a spare in the trunk of your car and be worry free.
Click to expand...

Hi Solo,
Your rig is cool !! Care to give a tour ?
You are right the tiny Mackie could probably be ok as an interim solution as it won't break the bank and our backs. Mackie is quick to address the needs of niche users with this 802. The Ashly M-406 is real cool...If only they or other manufacturers could make a high quality 1U or 2U line mixer, and reasonably priced...!!
 
I also researched every type of passive rack mixer available with my main priorities being balanced ins & outs and at least 4 balanced stereo inputs. There wasn't anything I could find available close to fitting this critera in a passive rack mixer except for the Behringer 1202FX - which only has 2 stereo inputs and is too big (3 rack spaces).

I went with the Mackie 1202-VLZ Pro and am very pleased with it - it's extremly versatile and dead quiet. BTW, all of its inputs and outputs are balanced and it has 3 sets of stereo outs (main, control room, and alternate). I picked it up used on eBay for $135.00 USD.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_3007.JPG
    76.3 KB · Views: 1,705
foray01 said:
Hi Solo,
Your rig is cool !! Care to give a tour ?
Click to expand...
Sure. In the 4 space axe-fx rack, I mounted the X2 receiver vertically so I have better line of sight reception. The extra space is filled with the laptop case and a couple microphone bags that hold capo, picks, xtra batteries, flashlight, an extra mic in case someone wants to jump in & sing, and an extra mic for me if my wireless headset goes down (I keep a boom mic stand in the car).

The rack w/ the mixing board is: vocal fx (lexicon LXP-1), compressor (FMR audio's RNC) in the top space, vocal wireless below that, board and cables in the bottom. Everything is already hooked up except for midi to vocal fx, axe-fx output to board, and power cable from axe-fx rack. The vocal wireless is mounted in the back now for better access to the board. Instead of a power strip I use one of those "squid" power supplies http://www.powersquid.com which saves vertical room for PA power/cables to be stowed next to the board. The squid is mounted to the left side of the rack. The pedalboard holds extra power cable, battery chargers, and two mini-guitar stands I recently bought cheap (discontinued but available on ebay).

I carry a "first aid kit" in the car in case the computer or any cables go down. It's a two rack space bag with a minidisc player, remote, backup cables and mini solder kit & plugs.
 
[/quote]Sure. In the 4 space axe-fx rack, I mounted the X2 receiver vertically so I have better line of sight reception. The extra space is filled with the laptop case and a couple microphone bags that hold capo, picks, xtra batteries, flashlight, an extra mic in case someone wants to jump in & sing, and an extra mic for me if my wireless headset goes down (I keep a boom mic stand in the car).

The rack w/ the mixing board is: vocal fx (lexicon LXP-1), compressor (FMR audio's RNC) in the top space, vocal wireless below that, board and cables in the bottom. Everything is already hooked up except for midi to vocal fx, axe-fx output to board, and power cable from axe-fx rack. The vocal wireless is mounted in the back now for better access to the board. Instead of a power strip I use one of those "squid" power supplies http://www.powersquid.com which saves vertical room for PA power/cables to be stowed next to the board. The squid is mounted to the left side of the rack. The pedalboard holds extra power cable, battery chargers, and two mini-guitar stands I recently bought cheap (discontinued but available on ebay).

I carry a "first aid kit" in the car in case the computer or any cables go down. It's a two rack space bag with a minidisc player, remote, backup cables and mini solder kit & plugs.[/quote]

Hi Solo,

Thanks for the rundown of your self-contained,one for the road rig. :cool:. I'm sure alll here who gigs alone will appreciate that too.
 
I've run into this same problem, I just picked up a mackie 1202 vlz off ebay for 150, I'll let you know how it goes!
 
The passive mixer I use in my rig is an Alesis 12r (the old one that is black). i feed four separate stereo signals into it, all balanced.

Channel 1 & 2:
Lead Vocal-->TC Helicon Voicetone==>stereo out to mixer

Channel 3 & 4:
Backup Vocal-->TC Helicon Voicetone==>stereo out to mixer

Channel 5 & 6:
Guitar-->AxeFX Ultra==>stereo out to mixer

Channel 10 & 11:
Synth/Laptop-->stereo out to mixer

On the Alesis 12r, all of the input can be either XLR or TRS, so its all balanced. Mic preamps on 8 channels (which i don't use at all, but they sound fine)

also the alesis 12r is cheap, especially if you get the previous model. ($100 or less)
 
No one here has said a thing about the Atomic Reactor as an FRFR solution for the Axe-FX. Isn't that what it's supposed to do? Is anyone using it and have an opinion?

(from a noob)
 
djfoster5 said:
No one here has said a thing about the Atomic Reactor as an FRFR solution for the Axe-FX. Isn't that what it's supposed to do? Is anyone using it and have an opinion?

(from a noob)
Click to expand...


The Atomic Reactors are rather new - the full line was made available around the time you posted this, so they weren't an option when this thread started.
 
Yep, I'm new to this too, but glad to say that solo-act's original post contained a summary of my view towards getting this working through our monitoring & PA set up:

solo-act said:
Long story short, I recommend a different mind set: Stop thinking about what an unmiced cabinet on stage sounds like. Replace that instead with what a great RECORDING of a guitar rig sounds like. Reference your favorite recordings and get THAT sound into your head. This is your starting point for dialing sounds with a full range speaker.
Click to expand...

Spot on that :)
 
djfoster5 said:
No one here has said a thing about the Atomic Reactor as an FRFR solution for the Axe-FX. Isn't that what it's supposed to do? Is anyone using it and have an opinion?

(from a noob)
Click to expand...

Well, that is an easy one to reply to :
I just got back from Dweezil Zappa's Dweezila Boot Camp, and we had a lot of time there to study his rig (and a zillion other things too !) :
Guitar > 2 axe ultras
Stereo outputs from the Ultras > 4 Atomic powered wedges.
And that's it. :eek: :eek: :eek:

The sound goes out from the XLR balanced thru connectors to the mixing consoles (recording, monitor and FOH), and OMG !!!!!!! Absolute perfection !
Nothing to add.

I've just ordered a pair of these wedges (on back order at this present time, should be available in the next few days), and all I need now is... to be able to play a lot better ! :oops:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom