Building presets - Best way to get uniform output levels?

[axme]

I read your post. I followed the link. I had to use my hand to lift my chin which had fallen to the floor. This is a HUGE deal to me. Thank you, thank you, thank you! So I can set up these switches, be playing live, adjust main output levels (I wonder what the increments are - I guess I'll find out) and then change presets and it saves how I left it? I'm curious how this automatic saving happens?

Fantastic. Wonderful. Amazing. Now if I can just get my presets to stop sounding mono in V10 all will be right with the world.

Edit: It works like a charm! Now all that's left to do is Photoshop a couple of new labels on some magnetic paper. Thanks again for bringing this to my attention, Shasha. I'll pass on a thanks from my band as well. I'm sure they'd want me to. They dread my "updates". They love the tones I get, but hate dealing with out-of-whack level changes. If you have a footswitch with many custom presets, this is a dream come true.

My jaw hit the floor when I saw this too. If this works, its the solution to my biggest problem.

I tried to get it working on my MFC but I'm a complete midiot.
- On my MFC I want to assign IA Switch #9 to Vol Inc and #10 to Vol Dec.
- According to the IO menu in my AxeFX, Vol Inc is CTRL 35 and Vol Dec is CTRL 36.
- In the MFC I assigned IA Switch #9 to CC35 and IA Switch #10 to CC36

.......it didnt work. Sasha said Midi CC28 and CC29....What am I doing wrong?

 

[pjrake]

^ This.

Chris's video is the most comprehensive, clear and accurate explanation of level-setting that I've seen.

+1.

In the video Chris talks about using the amp block level to adjust the volume. That's what I've been doing.

But I think it's time to get a meter and adjust the levels at gig volume.

 

[ballessay]

+1.

In the video Chris talks about using the amp block level to adjust the volume. That's what I've been doing.

Jap, ACK on that.

But I think it's time to get a meter and adjust the levels at gig volume.

Now here comes a thing I qustioned myself for a bit now.

Why do we have to use a peak meter and adjust at gig volume?

I mean, under the condition one uses a FRFR speaker the stuff coming out of the AxeFX should just get "louder"?

So why not just connect the output of the AxeFx, which would normally be used for the speaker, and connect it into a soundcard / audio interface and just measure the level (I hope relativly accurate) on a PC system without the need of anoying anyone ( the neighbours in my case)?

For example: Measure the level of the preset you want to adjust to, so we get a reference value X. Now switch the presets and measure the level to get value Y.. now adjust the two levels (well or better the second one to the reference value)?

Is there any problem with that method? Because I guess it would be fun to write a "audio level diff" application.

(clarification: just to adjust the levels of different presets / scenes to each other, nothing more)

 

[Chewie5150]

The Axe-Fx II offers a very convenient way to adjust preset levels on the fly (in other words: without editing): Volume Increment and Volume Decrement. These commands (CCs are in the I/O menu) enable you to adjust the preset level in small steps while playing. Adjustments are saved automatically! These commands adjust the preset output level (Layout menu). Note: Vol Inc and Vol Dec only affect the signal through Output 1, not Output 2 (Effects Send)!

^From the wiki. I'm looking at the note regarding Output 2. Forgive me if i am missing something simple, its still early and I'm only on my first nespresso. I am using OP 2 for my atomics and OP 1 for my interface/DAW. Wouldn't this be saved if I have Copy Out 1 to Out 2 in the I/O menu?

 

[shasha]

I have a feeling that the output 2 level thing not being copied has to do with it being for the FX loop and there may be concerns about overdriving something in that chain. I don't agree with it personally because I used to use output 2 for my floor monitors and output 1 for my audio interface which fed my studio monitors. When I'm setting my levels I want them all to match every where. I lent my floor monitors to someone who is actually gigging so I don't really have any way to verify if the copy 1 to 2 is affected by inc/dec or not.

 

[Loopback777]

My jaw hit the floor when I saw this too. If this works, its the solution to my biggest problem.

I tried to get it working on my MFC but I'm a complete midiot.
- On my MFC I want to assign IA Switch #9 to Vol Inc and #10 to Vol Dec.
- According to the IO menu in my AxeFX, Vol Inc is CTRL 35 and Vol Dec is CTRL 36.
- In the MFC I assigned IA Switch #9 to CC35 and IA Switch #10 to CC36

.......it didnt work. Sasha said Midi CC28 and CC29....What am I doing wrong?

Yep, if memory serves it was 35 and 36 for me too. You also need to change the OFF parameter (I think that was the next page or two in the MIDI menu on the MFC) from 000 to OFF for IA switch 9 and 10 so that you're not sending two commands every other time you press the button. I think that's why it's not working for you.

 

[Loopback777]

I tried setting levels with a meter a year or so ago. The problem for me is that my attack on the strings varies by my environment. If I'm playing a show and the audience isn't into it, I tend to play more conservatively. When they're going nuts, so am I. This can cause decent volume differences. Also, the metering approach is a pain in the ass. I run about 85 presets now (we keep a rotation of about 60 songs, dropping one when we add another). That can be a lot of metering. I remember one of the updates that was supposed to be mostly just bug fixes. I didn't bother to check output levels and nearly blew a main (and killed a hot girl) on one preset. I was paranoid the rest of the night.

 

[axme]

Yep, if memory serves it was 35 and 36 for me too. You also need to change the OFF parameter (I think that was the next page or two in the MIDI menu on the MFC) from 000 to OFF for IA switch 9 and 10 so that you're not sending two commands every other time you press the button. I think that's why it's not working for you.

Got it......thanks!

 

[chris]

Why do we have to use a peak meter and adjust at gig volume?

I mean, under the condition one uses a FRFR speaker the stuff coming out of the AxeFX should just get "louder"?

There is a phenomenon called the FM curve where as volume gets louder, the bass and treble increase at a faster rate than the mids. So tones created at lower levels may sound good at home, but then when you get to the gig and increase your volume 6-15 dB or more, it may become very bassy and shrill suddenly and you won't "cut through" the mix. You may try turning up more, but it just becomes more muddy etc.

That's why creating tones at gig level will already have the bass and treble high due to the FM curve and you can compensate for them since you can hear it.

 

[ballessay]

There is a phenomenon called the FM curve where as volume gets louder, the bass and treble increase at a faster rate than the mids. So tones created at lower levels may sound good at home, but then when you get to the gig and increase your volume 6-15 dB or more, it may become very bassy and shrill suddenly and you won't "cut through" the mix. You may try turning up more, but it just becomes more muddy etc.

That's why creating tones at gig level will already have the bass and treble high due to the FM curve and you can compensate for them since you can hear it.

Thanks again Chris for your input. Yeah I guess you're right. I totally left that out of "my model".

 

[ballessay]

There is a phenomenon called the FM curve where as volume gets louder, the bass and treble increase at a faster rate than the mids. So tones created at lower levels may sound good at home, but then when you get to the gig and increase your volume 6-15 dB or more, it may become very bassy and shrill suddenly and you won't "cut through" the mix. You may try turning up more, but it just becomes more muddy etc.

Guess I have to correct myself or clarify what i meant. The title asks how the get the output levels of the different presets one uses on an nearly equal output volume level right? So lets say you got that "right volume" at gigging volume. Why not take that as a reference and fit the volumes of the other presetes to that just by taking the "peak value" of the preset. Again EQing and stuff is on another page but just to get a good starting point it should be good enough to use such a measurement and a refernece value. Or what am I missing?

 

[JosephGarraty]

Probably it's ignorance on my part, but I can't see how using a peak meter is at all helpful for level setting across presets, unless all your presets are about equally clean or dirty. Generally speaking, cleans will have very pronounced transients, which will read high on the peak meter, and dirtier sounds have clipped transients but much greater RMS levels. The greater RMS levels will sound loud as hell, even at a measured peak level that is MUCH lower than your clean settings. Comparing the two and trying to set levels accordingly seems like it would range from useless to actively unhelpful.

I wish there were an easier way, but I haven't found a good substitute yet for just listening.

 

[Rex]

So why not just connect the output of the AxeFx, which would normally be used for the speaker, and connect it into a soundcard / audio interface and just measure the level (I hope relativly accurate) on a PC system without the need of anoying anyone ( the neighbours in my case)?

Lots of reasons:

• The Fletcher-Munson equal-loudness curves. In other words, the way human hearing changes with loudness.

• Different peak-to-average ratios. For example, clean tones have peaks that far exceed the average level, compared to dirty tones.

• Different mixes. Add drums, bass, vocals and keyboards, and the level and EQ you need will change (again, depending of the tone).

Short story: you have to use your ears to level-match, and you have to do it at the volume you intend to use, with the instruments you intend to play with.

 

[ballessay]

Short story: you have to use your ears to level-match, and you have to do it at the volume you intend to use, with the instruments you intend to play with.

Thanks for that information, I mean I'm sure I've read that before but I'll give the topics you pointed out a read.

 

[wogs858]

When using the vol up/ down stomps , does it incr/decr volume of individual scenes? or individual presets?

 

[chris]

It's the Main level in the last layout page, and that's the parameter you use to set different scene levels, so it should be for scenes.

 

[axme]

Every room is different and EQ plays a big role in how "loud" the guitar is perceived by both the crowd and the player. SPL meters are great but I trust my ears. Using the Vol In / Vol Dec should proide a way to get close and hopefully rid me of the paranoid volume pedal routine when I change patches.....thanks a million!!!!

 

[webe123]

Every room is different and EQ plays a big role in how "loud" the guitar is perceived by both the crowd and the player. SPL meters are great but I trust my ears. Using the Vol In / Vol Dec should proide a way to get close and hopefully rid me of the paranoid volume pedal routine when I change patches.....thanks a million!!!!

You don't have to use a "either or" approach.

I use a meter, but I also use my ears to tell me if something is too loud or soft.

 

[Zwiebelchen]

There's one downside to using the level increment and decrement feature, which basicly forced me to reset all my scene levels back to +/- 0 dB and adjust the amp level manually again:
If you switch amp models inside the same scene, you might have huge level jumps depending on how much you balanced out both amps.
In general, it's always the best practicate the set the level of the preset by setting the level of the amp block. This way, if you switch amp models, no matter if by switching scenes, presets, or just by IA, the level will always be correct. Plus, the presets are easier to analyze, as there is only one level variable in each preset/scene, which is the amp block. When you use the scene vol+ and vol-, you don't know which of the volume levels is actually the 'incorrect' one, which is annoying if you want to make changes later on.

Conclusion: Use an SPL meter as the starting point to level out the presets (considering all other blocks except boost are set to unity gain, which you should always do!), then fine-tune the amp level on a rehearsal/live volume situation. I recommend assigning one of the quick control knobs to amp level (Don't use A for that, because it's already assigned to scene changing by default!).


Btw:
Vote for a CC on vol+ and vol- of amp block level like scene+ and scene-!

 

[Loopback777]

If you switch amp models inside the same scene, you might have huge level jumps depending on how much you balanced out both amps.

Or don't use scenes - I don't see an advantage for my setup. I get what you're saying, but I don't see that it'd be a huge problem if you set those two amps to the correct ratio to begin. My thought with the Vol Inc/Dec is that I'm going to zero in on everything as much as I can (with Output at 0dB) during practice, so my adjustments won't need to be that dramatic. Actually, the more I think about it, I'll ballpark on my own, like I always have. Then when I'm practicing, I'll use Vol Inc/Dec to get them right in the mix. Then, when the band is gone, I'll use the out level in the amp block to match the main out level (with my ears). That should get me pretty close, and save time in practice.