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"Behind" note buzz.HELP!!!

Gtr65

New Member
That's called intermodulation distortion (IM). It occurs whenever you have multiple tones through a nonlinearity. Real amps do the same thing.
Thanks, Cliff, sincerely, for weighing in on this. This explanation does ring true (no pun intended). It makes perfect sense that, in that we have a very damn-near exact virtual re-creation of real-world amplifiers in the AxeFx, some of their inherent "foibles," such as IM, naturally emerge. Yet, being that we have the benefit here of having, at our disposal, a myriad of virtual world parameters, the depth of which is absolutely unparalleled, are there any we can tweak that would reduce or eliminate IM, if desired?
 
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L

Lionheart

Guest
As I said on page 1, the clip sounds normal. It sounds like a real amp. Kinda odd reading through this thread.

Also, you guys realize that this isn't just an amp thing, right? You can get IMD (never knew the technical name for it) from an acoustic guitar.

Let's just suck all the idiosyncrasies out of guitar playing. Yeah, that sounds fun. o_O
 

lscottk

Inspired
As I said on page 1, the clip sounds normal. It sounds like a real amp. Kinda odd reading through this thread.

Also, you guys realize that this isn't just an amp thing, right? You can get IMD (never knew the technical name for it) from an acoustic guitar.

Let's just suck all the idiosyncrasies out of guitar playing. Yeah, that sounds fun. o_O
I remember a comment
that Cliff posted just prior to releasing Quantum 3 where he said that he was afraid to release the new v3 firmware because it was so close to real amp spit and fizz that people would complain. Is the IMD discussed in this thread what Cliff was talking about?

I love the idiosyncrasies of the Fractal amp modeling. It is one of the things that I missed when I was using an HD500.
 

Rex

Legend!
...being that we have the benefit here of having, at our disposal, a myriad of virtual world parameters, the depth of which is absolutely unparalleled, are there any we can tweak that would reduce or eliminate IM, if desired?
Whenever you have nonlinear distortion, you get intermodulation between signals. The only way to eliminate it is to reduce the gain until there is no distortion. That only works for clean tones. :)

Or...mute all of the strings except the one note you're playing.
 
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Alenv3

Member
As I said on page 1, the clip sounds normal. It sounds like a real amp. Kinda odd reading through this thread.

Also, you guys realize that this isn't just an amp thing, right? You can get IMD (never knew the technical name for it) from an acoustic guitar.

Let's just suck all the idiosyncrasies out of guitar playing. Yeah, that sounds fun. o_O
This isn't normal...Try real amp with lighter touch and volume pot.You will see what I'm talking about.This reduces dynamics and sustain.I know that real amp does it but Its not "loud buzz" and whey you roll off volume pot or playing with lighter touch it disapears.My mesa lonestar dont have this problem...
 

Rex

Legend!
It disappears if your lighter touch and volume roll-off drop the amp or amp model below audible distortion.
 

paulmapp8306

Fractal Fanatic
I hear it - and its normal. My 2 real amps do the same thing. AS for the above comment???? The dynamics have improved immensely since the ultra/standard days. Yes you would not get his buzz being talked about - because the modelling at that point wasn't good enough to get it. Now its accurate enough to generate these artefacts that exist in real amps. I can get one patch to go from high gain to crunch to clean with a vol pot without issues. Yes you get this buzz at the point where its almost clean but isnt quite, but as I say - my real amps do the same thing at the same point.

Im guessing why the OPs friends say they cant hear it - is because they cant hear anything that doesnt occur naturally in real amps rather than they cant hear it at all - ie I dont hear anything wrong with the sound, rather than I dont hear any buzz at all.
 

fastnloud

New Member
Sure you could sell your AFX and buy the little green "K" no one is stopping you but the last little green K sold on fleabay for 1400 and the XL+ sold for 2750 used. That's one reason that proves why the AFX is the worlds best and remember, you cant create your own presets with the little green "k" only profiles.There is NO company even close to the fractal products for tone and quality and the awesome Fractal forum here.
 

greiswig

Power User
I hear exactly what you're talking about, and it it the one (and only) thing that bothers me about the AxeFx; it's like, on a medium or higher gain setting, there is an artifact---an unnatural buzz---that creeps in just as a sustained note begins to trail off.
Good luck swimming against this particular tide. ;-)

I think this probably is normal for some amps. I know my regular amps don't do what I heard in the clip, either. When I have brought this up before, I have been told that all amps do that.

My reaction is kind of "So what?" This is a modeler, where we have "ideal" pentodes, preamp compression, and so forth. We can put drive pedals between the amp and a cabinet. So in many ways, already, we have flexibility that goes way beyond authenticity. Yet the stock line seems to be to adhere strictly to this particular authenticity.

I would love to have a way to dial this out. For now, best just to try to find an amp model that does it less. There are some. EDIT: on at least some amps, that sound seems associated with power amp clipping, so if you lean less on the power amp for the overdrive it seems to help.
 
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Gtr65

New Member
Good luck swimming against this particular tide. ;-)

I think this probably is normal for some amps. I know my regular amps don't do what I heard in the clip, either. When I have brought this up before, I have been told that all amps do that.

My reaction is kind of "So what?" This is a modeler, where we have "ideal" pentodes, preamp compression, and so forth. We can put drive pedals between the amp and a cabinet. So in many ways, already, we have flexibility that goes way beyond authenticity. Yet the stock line seems to be to adhere strictly to this particular authenticity.

I would love to have a way to dial this out. For now, best just to try to find an amp model that does it less. There are some.
+1 --- I've used nearly every modeler there is, including the 'K' toaster box, finally ending up with the ultimate (the AxeFx). Most if not all of them offer the advantage of amp-like realism without drawbacks like loud hum and even IM distortion.

I, too, would like to be able to dial it out somehow, taking advantage of all the tweakability that the Axe has that actual amps don't. I fully realize and appreciate what an achievement Q3.0+ is in terms of realism. I guess I'm just looking for a tip on a parameter or parameters to tweak in order to reduce or eliminate IM distortion, when desired, if possible.
 

Alenv3

Member
Good luck swimming against this particular tide. ;-)

I think this probably is normal for some amps. I know my regular amps don't do what I heard in the clip, either. When I have brought this up before, I have been told that all amps do that.

My reaction is kind of "So what?" This is a modeler, where we have "ideal" pentodes, preamp compression, and so forth. We can put drive pedals between the amp and a cabinet. So in many ways, already, we have flexibility that goes way beyond authenticity. Yet the stock line seems to be to adhere strictly to this particular authenticity.

I would love to have a way to dial this out. For now, best just to try to find an amp model that does it less. There are some.
Yep!Thanks for answer!
On modern era amps you don't hear it that much...older amps is different story.So I don't like my "mesa" amps on axe fx have marshall "rice" sound becouse of buzz...I'm half-professional musician that have studio and live experiance with band and I'm also diplomed classical guitar teacher that work in state music school.I have behind me twenty years of playing real amps so I think I have some knowlage how things should work and sound in real world.Btw. this is minor issue so I'm keeping my axe for future fw.... but in meanwile I will get "little green box"!
 

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
The "buzziness" of IM is a function of the "hardness" of the clipping circuit. The first thing you need to do is determine what is distorting: preamp or power amp. Power amp distortion is typically harder than preamp distortion due to global negative feedback. If you are using a modern amp model, i.e. something with a Master Volume, then there is a very good chance you might be overdriving the virtual power amp. In this case simply lowering the Master Volume will reduce IM.

If it's preamp distortion then you can reduce Preamp Hardness or experiment with the Preamp Bias to change the distortion character.

The Axe-Fx II is extremely accurate. Understanding how real amps work will allow you to adjust things to achieve your ultimate tone.

To the OP: what amp model are you using? I will post a clip of the actual amp vs. the model and prove that the real amp does the same thing.
 

Alenv3

Member
The "buzziness" of IM is a function of the "hardness" of the clipping circuit. The first thing you need to do is determine what is distorting: preamp or power amp. Power amp distortion is typically harder than preamp distortion due to global negative feedback. If you are using a modern amp model, i.e. something with a Master Volume, then there is a very good chance you might be overdriving the virtual power amp. In this case simply lowering the Master Volume will reduce IM.

If it's preamp distortion then you can reduce Preamp Hardness or experiment with the Preamp Bias to change the distortion character.

The Axe-Fx II is extremely accurate. Understanding how real amps work will allow you to adjust things to achieve your ultimate tone.

To the OP: what amp model are you using? I will post a clip of the actual amp vs. the model and prove that the real amp does the same thing.
Actualy this preset is Jr.Blues.But any amp example from Jr. Blues to ODS-100 factory presets.
 
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Alenv3

Member
Actualy this preset is Jr.Blues.But any amp example from Jr. Blues to ODS-100 factory presets.
Also have preset with mix of ac20 and asf100 where is more expressed.My ODS 100 "lead" also have this "marshall rice" symptoms...Btw. I'm on q2.04 fw.
 
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Alenv3

Member
MANY users will be thankfull if its possible to have parameter in amp block that decreases-incerases IM distortion.I know that there are users that like this "mojo" of real amp...but We are all different so this option will be nice to have if its possible.Thanks for support Cliff.
 
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zenaxe

Fractal Fanatic
MANY users will be thankfull if its possible to have parameter in amp block that decreases-incerases IM distortion.Is this possible?!?
You've been elected spokesperson? BTW, Cliff noted it is already controllable with existing parameters and gave a detailed explanation on doing so; doesn't sound like any change is necessary. :confused:
 
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