Bass Tones dissapearing in a live mix

wiseburger

New Member
Hello everyone, recently I picked up an Axefx 2xl+ and a matrix gt1600fx poweramp. Ive been playing around with it for a few weeks now and im not really getting where i want to be, so i figured id ask you guys for help. Im using the axe for bass through an ampeg 810 cab, but i just cant seem to find my place in the mix like i was able to prior with my ampeg bass amp. My band has 2 guitarists, one using an axe 2 xl+ and one using a a mark 1; both with rocktron power amps. Ive made a few patches of my own, and right now im primarily using a modified SeeD patch with a b7k ultra in the front. Im happy with how my tone sounds solo, but as soon as one of the other guys start to play i dissapear completely. Ive found myself cranking the volume on the poweramp just to be heard at all. If i walk away from my speaker during reherseal i cant hear anything, the sound doesnt seem to travel. Im happy to share my preset or provide any other information that may help you guys help me.

Thanks!
 
It sounds like you and your guitarists are trying to cover the same "sonic ground". If you guys are all on Fractal gear, then this should be easy for you guys to remedy, as all the tools you need are in the box. The three of you need to get together and carve out some frequency space for everyone to be heard. There are a ton of variables, but I've found it's best to think of it like a Sound Engineer might. Each instrument (Drums, Bass, Guitar, Vocals etc...) needs space to be heard by the audience, and that means that there has to be a little compromise with the frequencies used by everyone. I would start with the high/low cuts for your bass and both of the guitars. In my band, we cut the guitars up to at least 130hz in the Fractals, at some venues we cut them up even higher on the actual soundboard (140-145hz).

For your bass, you need to first decide as a band where you intend to have your Kick Drum live. Usually it's a trade off between the Kick Drum and the Bass taking a boost/cut between 60-80hz and 100-120hz. Once you decide which way fits your bands sound/feel (between the kick and the bass) then make the appropriate boost/cuts to your bass tone. Remember that there are a variety of EQ options in the box. If you do a quick Google search, there are tons of people offering advice about how to EQ a bass to fit a mix. It's important to start thinking like a Sound Engineer.

I guess, to summarize, the reason you may be getting lost in the mix may be because of the EQ choices that your bandmates are making. In order to fix that problem, the whole group needs to get on board and be willing to make some changes. Another thing to remember, often times an Instrument won't sound great on it's own once it's been EQ'd for a live mix... but once the band kicks off a song, the pieces fit together and everything sounds great. Each instrument supporting one another.
 
I will definitely see if they are willing to sit down and play with frequencies. For cutting in the fractals, would i just run a high/low pass filter at the end of the chain to cut whatever frequency out?
 
Are the other band members complaining that you are too loud at rehearsal? What style of music? Do you feel that your volume is comparable with your Matrix amp compared to the prior amp head (what is that amp head?) you used to use? What model SVT cabinet? Is it the single input MONO 4 ohm cabinet, or the one that has dual 8 ohm inputs/mono 4 ohm?

If you still have your old bass amp head, I'd spend some time doing a side-by-side comparison of the AxeFx+Matrix vs. the bass amp head, in terms of matching the tone and output volume level using the same 8x10 cabinet.
 
The guitarist whose amp is near mine can hear me, the other one on the other side of our drummer cannot hear me. we play Metal, my volume with the axefx is far louder right now it just doesnt come through the mix; you can hear a little of the low end coming through but anything not on my low string dissapears. My previous amp is an ampeg svt4pro. Its the 810e with the dual mode inputs, im running one side of the matrix into the top 4 speakers and the other side into the bottom 4. If i bridge the matrix it goes into protect mode(not meant to operate at 4 ohms)
 
The guitarist whose amp is near mine can hear me, the other one on the other side of our drummer cannot hear me. we play Metal, my volume with the axefx is far louder right now it just doesnt come through the mix; you can hear a little of the low end coming through but anything not on my low string dissapears. My previous amp is an ampeg svt4pro. Its the 810e with the dual mode inputs, im running one side of the matrix into the top 4 speakers and the other side into the bottom 4. If i bridge the matrix it goes into protect mode(not meant to operate at 4 ohms)

Then this seems to be a tone problem, all other things being the same. Have you tried just stripping out everything other than the Amp Model (SVT?) from the AxeFxII and working with just that, tweaking the tone as needed? I think the hardest part of the modeling equation is cabinet simulation via full-range cabinets, and you've eliminated that problem by using a traditional 8x10 cabinet. I'd start over with the preset, with just the amp model and maybe the B7k drive pedal in front of it, and see if that helps make your tone more present in the room.
 
Wiseburger, the low/high cuts can be found in both the Amp block and the Cab block. Try one or both, see which you like better. (I use both, because I'm weird like that.

If it was me, I might start my bass eq with a low cut up to 35-40hz. This often times tightens things up a little because your speakers will then be able to focus on everything above that. For the guitars, I'd try the low cut up somewhere around 130hz. Start there and tweak to taste. Remember that you still need to make room for your drummer/vocals etc. Listen to the core frequency of each instrument, and where it should be sitting in the mix... go slow, take small cuts of frequencies from the instruments where they don't need them, a little goes a long way. By doing this, you will allow the instrument that needs those frequencies to stand out a little. The goal is to make each instrument work with the others, while still being able to clearly identify the character of each unique piece.

Remember to do this at gig levels, and to take frequent breaks from the sound to let your ears rest.

Good luck!
 
Gday wiseburger ,
Just wondering - are you using one single power amp to power the 8 speakers, or two amps (l&r) 4 + 4 with 2 leads?

[edit] the reason I'm asking is that if you are powering 4 speakers with one side of the amp, and 4 with the other side, and (here's the kicker) if you (for some reason) had the amp in bridge mode - one side will be out of phase with the other and though the amp will still work, it'll seem weird and get lost in the band exactly as you describe. In short, if you're running two speaker cables to your cab, make sure the switch (left hand rear of your amp) is not slid to the right (bridge mode). I believe there's also a light on the amps front panel that will be on if it's bridged.

Thanks
Pauly
 
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Gday wiseburger ,
Just wondering - are you using one single power amp to power the 8 speakers, or two amps (l&r) 4 + 4 with 2 leads?

[edit] the reason I'm asking is that if you are powering 4 speakers with one side of the amp, and 4 with the other side, and (here's the kicker) if you (for some reason) had the amp in bridge mode - one side will be out of phase with the other and though the amp will still work, it'll seem weird and get lost in the band exactly as you describe. In short, if you're running two speaker cables to your cab, make sure the switch (left hand rear of your amp) is not slid to the right (bridge mode). I believe there's also a light on the amps front panel that will be on if it's bridged.

Thanks
Pauly

As stated in his previous post, the Matrix amp he's using is not rated for 4 ohm loads in bridge mono, and thus he's running one side of the amp to the top 4 speakers, and the other side to the bottom 4 speakers (8 ohms per side each). You are correct, though, to make sure there isn't any phase cancellation going on due to a flip in polarity somewhere amongst the 2 feeds from the amp.
 
Well ratings aside, (I can't even see where her stated the amp is rated to four ohms sorry) I'm tipping the amp is configured in bridge mode unintentionally, and therefore each channel of the amp is out of phase with the other.

As stated in his previous post, the Matrix amp he's using is not rated for 4 ohm loads in bridge mono, and thus he's running one side of the amp to the top 4 speakers, and the other side to the bottom 4 speakers (8 ohms per side each). You are correct, though, to make sure there isn't any phase cancellation going on due to a flip in polarity somewhere amongst the 2 feeds from the amp.
 
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Well ratings aside, (I can't even see where her stated the amp is rated to four ohms sorry) I'm tipping the amp is configured in bridge mode unintentionally, and therefore each channel of the amp is out of phase with the other.

Well, let's wait for the OP to chime in again.

My previous amp is an ampeg svt4pro. Its the 810e with the dual mode inputs, im running one side of the matrix into the top 4 speakers and the other side into the bottom 4. If i bridge the matrix it goes into protect mode(not meant to operate at 4 ohms)
 
I hear ya man. I was having the exact same issues earlier this year after buying a matrix gt1000fx (so not even the 1600).
Long story short, I heard drastic improvements when I started A/Bing different Pre amps. First tried a Tone Hammer and MXR bass DI (pedals) straight into the Matrix to start with, was pretty much night and day improvement. I debated selling the matrix but then I ended up buying SansAmp RBI pre and liked the sound of it too much. I love the sound of the recorded Bass with an IR, really truly amazing for studio. But live I tried my guts out, posted on these forums got as much help as I could, for me its just not enough for Live.
 
But live I tried my guts out, posted on these forums got as much help as I could, for me its just not enough for Live.

Not sure I get what your closing statement means when you refer to "its just not enough for live". What is "IT"? The AxeFx using cab IRs, or the Matrix Amp, or what, exactly?
 
G'day Gilly,

Any chance you could share some of your recording presets?
Thanks
Pauly


I hear ya man. I was having the exact same issues earlier this year after buying a matrix gt1000fx (so not even the 1600).
Long story short, I heard drastic improvements when I started A/Bing different Pre amps. First tried a Tone Hammer and MXR bass DI (pedals) straight into the Matrix to start with, was pretty much night and day improvement. I debated selling the matrix but then I ended up buying SansAmp RBI pre and liked the sound of it too much. I love the sound of the recorded Bass with an IR, really truly amazing for studio. But live I tried my guts out, posted on these forums got as much help as I could, for me its just not enough for Live.
 
You may have TOO MUCH low low end.
There's a good point. If you really want to hear what the bass is doing in the mix, look to the mids. If you want to hide the bass behind a wall of rumble, give it tons of bottom end.
 
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