Bass cut in II vs Ultra?

prometh

prometh

Power User
I am attempting to recreate a patch from the Axe-Fx Ultra on the Axe-Fx II.

Attached is a spectrum analysis of first, the Axe-Fx Ultra and second, the Axe-Fx II.

There appears to be a considerable bass cut on the II. I've tried messing around with the Amp block's "Speaker" tab to no avail.

Any ideas?
 

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You can't hear that low. If it is loud, you might feel it. Those frequencies are 'rumble frequencies' and only cause problems, and are almost ALWAYS cut out, both live and in the studio (except for maybe the kick drum).

It's not the reason the preset sounds different. Try adjusting the cut in the ultra from the lowest value to about 70hz - you will not hear any difference, but if it's really loud you might feel a difference.

You're better off without those frequencies, why would you want them anyway? :/
 
I'm not sure which of those curves came from Axe-II and Ultra but there are differences in 2000hz which is where the guitar bites. Also everything below 500hz is different so I would assume it will sound different no matter what. Human ears can hear down to 20hz and there are big differences in the low end at 70hz and 125hz, both of which are important guitar frequencies in the low end.
 
We might be able to hear down to 20Hz but real amps and more importantly cabs don't do much that low, below 70. Even if you're down tuned guitar most guitar speaker cabs are seriously inefficient down there. I suspect the II is more accurate than the Ultra in that respect. I'd be looking a touch higher between 70-120 to correct the perception of bass. Then normally you'll get a sound engineer eqing it all out to make room for kick and bass!
 
Could be a perception thing - looks like you've got more mids which could mess with the perception of how much low there is?
 
If you still have an ultra, you can always TM the tone, no?
But I think that the difference you hear is probably due to other freqs being different (especially in the 2000Hz and 125Hz from what I can see) and not the sub 60Hz territory.
For example upping the 125Hz and 2000Hz will add some bite both for low and hi freqs, with final result being that you will perceive the sound as "fuller" and "more 3d".
Too much bass doesn't make the sound fuller, just more bassy (which is a rather bad thing e.g. in a mix, where you would want the instruments to be "seperated" sonically one from another so you can place them more effectivly in your mix) and for guitar use, it also makes the sound flubbier (especially with distorted sound). Actually, the more "chug" you want from a distorted sound (and the more distorted the sound is), the more low end you gonna have to cut. YMMV of course etc...
 
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HJM said:
I suspect the II is more accurate than the Ultra in that respect. I'd be looking a touch higher between 70-120 to correct the perception of bass. Then normally you'll get a sound engineer eqing it all out to make room for kick and bass!
Click to expand...

Both units are accurate. In the end it's all about what sounds better.

Usual mix:
KICK 60hz
SNARE above it
BASS after that or sidechained
GUITAR LOW END PEAK 125hz

I'd say you don't have to worry about anything below 125hz. But in this case 125hz is the most important low end frequency IMO at least.

I think in this comparison the biggest difference is the cabinet/IR if it's not the same IR? Doesn't seem to be that way you know... :)
 
Clark Kent said:
Both units are accurate. In the end it's all about what sounds better.

Usual mix:
KICK 60hz
SNARE above it
BASS after that or sidechained
GUITAR LOW END PEAK 125hz

I'd say you don't have to worry about anything below 125hz. But in this case 125hz is the most important low end frequency IMO at least.

I think in this comparison the biggest difference is the cabinet/IR if it's not the same IR? Doesn't seem to be that way you know... :)
Click to expand...

I was going to suggest that. Just capture the same cab on the Ultra. Then use the capture. Easy to do and will probably get it REAL close.
 
I'm already using the same IR on both machines. I don't have my Ultra anymore, but I have recordings of it and I remember how it felt.

The sharp cut, not the cut in general, is what's changing the sound. On the Ultra, the rolloff is gradual. Yes, it doesn't cut the excess lows, because I did that in my DAW.

Also, I'd rather not rely on a tone match block. I did try it, though, and it wasn't accurate enough. This is one of my main tones, so the difference is very obvious to me.
 
prometh said:
I'm already using the same IR on both machines. I don't have my Ultra anymore, but I have recordings of it and I remember how it felt.

The sharp cut, not the cut in general, is what's changing the sound. On the Ultra, the rolloff is gradual. Yes, it doesn't cut the excess lows, because I did that in my DAW.

Also, I'd rather not rely on a tone match block. I did try it, though, and it wasn't accurate enough. This is one of my main tones, so the difference is very obvious to me.
Click to expand...

Is it a stock cab?
 
It looks like a bigger issue is at 125 - 130hz (I would use the eq in the amp, 125hz up coulple/few db). Alternatively turn up the depth a little.

There is a bit of a notch in original at 1.8k in the ultra. 2-4k is generally higher on the ultra.

Only so much you can tell with a graph and not hearing it.

Which amp model?
If really want that subsonic stuff in there you can raise the low cut freq. It is variable depending on the amp.
 
I matched almost all settings to the Ultra preset. Amp's "low cut" is 10hz and "low resonance" is at 80hz
 
prometh said:
I matched almost all settings to the Ultra preset. Amp's "low cut" is 10hz and "low resonance" is at 80hz
Click to expand...

Well the modeling and amps are different on the II, especially in 6.0. Many of the amps are matched to amps Fractal Audio has.
Which Amp model?
 
prometh said:
It was a Recto Red
Click to expand...
Which recto red, there are 2?

Yep. it has been complete reworked and tone/amp matched with a Recto the have in house. matching settings are not going to get you there.

Try the suggestion I made earlier, see if that helps.
 
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