Bandmates don't want to record to a click

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I'm doing all of the recording, mixing, editing, and guitar playing. basically everything except playing the other instruments for our band's recordings and some of the band mates are very adamant about not recording to a metronome. Their argument is that it will sound more natural. We record the drummer first, and with the current method, he's playing along with both guitarists live with the guitars coming through his headphones only. I've done several songs like this with them and they turned out pretty good. I want them to be better though. We've already had to re-do a song because of bad tempo changes.

So now, how do I convince them that anyone in their right mind records to a metronome? Does anyone even record without a metronome at all these days? It just seems like this is not a discussion that we even need to have. As a producer, engineer, or whatever you want to call my role here, how do you guide the artist to make the right decisions for a good final product? (In this case I am the artist also) If you're working at a studio and an artist comes in and wants to record without tuning his guitar, or something else ridiculous, where is the line that you draw and say "don't be a dumbass"? (in nicer words)
 
I have done a great many sessions, both in pro studios and home studios. Almost every session was to a click track. Any professional musician that cannot work with a click track is unemployed. It has been my experience that musicians that cannot record to a click track usually insist that there be no click because it reveals how sloppy they are. Contemporary music usually involves arpeggiators, sequencers, etc. They are useless unless the track has consistent tempo. So the argument boils down to this. If they are skilled players, they should have no objection to working with a click, and staying locked in the pocket. If they cannot work with a click, then they are not as skilled as they think they are.

If some "artist" came to my studio and refused to tune their instrument, I would tell them I cannot work with them and politely ask them to leave, letting them know I would use someone else. If they protested, I would let them know I want to work with someone who does their best, not someone who strives for mediocrity. As a seasoned veteran of many sessions I assure you that if you are a problem in a professional studio, they show you to the door, and never call you again.
 
John is absolutely correct. If it sounds harsh, it’s because it is...the reality is harsh.
Either you can play to the click or you need more practice, very simple. The click is simply a boundary within which you can do ANYTHING you like. It creates a structure for your creativity. You’re not stuck in a certain tempo, if you are writing in odd time signatures, yet these also have a structure.

I won’t say there aren’t musicians that can do it without a click, yet I can count them on one hand. I mean I’ve played with a significant number of players and with me included, the click will reveal your weaknesses. It’s in that way that it also supports your strengths. Playing to a click allows any discrepancies to be revealed for “fixing” and will MOST often lead to a better finished product.

The other significant issue you are facing is you don’t have an outsider, the producer, to say these things to your bandmates. That can be a challenge. I have spoken up in these type of situations and the outcome was I eventually left the project.

That all being said, there’s no reason you can’t make “ROUGH” recordings of your tunes. Yet NO professional will accept this type of recording these days. It’s just too easy to put the metronome on and see that the tempo is NOT consistent. It doesn’t sound “more natural,” to the contrary, it just sounds less professional, IMO.
 
Go Robert Duvall Days of Thunder on them. Just get them to try it with and without. Then play the two tracks back like a double blind taste test and see which one sounds tighter, or less messy, or whatever.

If you can't get them to at least try something new that could help, maybe it's time to think about who your working with at a deeper level. If as you say you've already had to go back and fix things due to tempo problems, and they don't want to take steps outside of what they "normally do", I would be looking to work with other people.

As was said above, sloppy playing does not equate to "natural" "feel". That's just an excuse for lack of proficiency, or effort, or attention to detail, or professionalism, et cetera, so on, and so forth...

That's just wasting everyone's time and studio time costs $$$...
 
Yeah, what they all said...however there are many forms of music not recorded to click, much jazz for instance, and lots of improvisational music, stuff where the actual "performance" is valued above the "product" so to speak..
 
Carl said:
Yeah, what they all said...however there are many forms of music not recorded to click, much jazz for instance, and lots of improvisational music, stuff where the actual "performance" is valued above the "product" so to speak..
Click to expand...

+1
 
Agree with the above, even if just for the sake of adding timed parts later.

But I can think of several great recordings that were clearly not recorded with a metronome, because they gradually speed up. And to me, playing in a cover band, they sound wrong if they don't speed up, but of course you can manipulate tempo changes to your click track if that's the effect you're trying to achieve (and maybe that's what is bugging you band mates).
 
Tricky one really because you are a member of the band too. If you were a producer and hiring in musicians then yes you could send them home ... but if you're all 'equals' ..... all the usual band dynamics will raise their ugly heads.

If the music suits it then a click track is nothing to be scared of .... but perhaps it is fear of looking stupid that prevents some of your guys from giving it a go.

Just persevere and coax them into trying it out ...... if it increases the takes who cares? The whole point of the recording session is to try things out until it sounds right.... especially if it's a home studio with no hourly rate to worry about. It's just an experiment so why should some not want to at least give it a go?
 
My opinion would be - that it depends. There are plenty of bands in the 60's and 70's that never played with a click track and the music is organic and amazing. There are lots of bands today that record to a click track and play live with one - and the music sounds stale and lifeless- and vice versa. I think it depends on the type of music being played and the arrangement being played.
While I agree that a professional musician should have no issues playing with a click - I also think there is an artistic freedom to not playing with one. Like I said - kind of depends on the type of music, the track itself, and the story you want to tell.
Don't think theres any right or wrong there...
 
To play a bit of devil's advocate here to most of the posts, some songs need to "breathe" and that is hard to do with a straight click.

You can do a "mapped" click track where there are defined tempo changes, either mild or drastic, but I would bet it would really hard to make that sound organic.

Maybe I was spoiled to play with a drummer for 24 years who was a machine! We did many recordings with no click and only infrequently had issues with being able to splice parts from different takes. A great drummer really can eliminate the need for a click!

We have also done songs with a click, and that works too... But, if you aren't regularly performing with a click (we don't, only live musicians, no programmed content so no need) that can feel a bit uncomfortable because organic music can and does have an ebb and flow.
 
Whether or not a click is appropriate depends largely on the song. When I listen to my favorite old albums, I often hear awkward tempo changes (sometimes due to edits, sometimes due to playing), but it doesn't bother me. In fact, it gives the song character and can greatly enhance its emotional impact. I've made tempo maps for countless classic rock songs, and the tempo can vary all over the place, even with a straight beat. Drum fills can be rushed or stretched. It is what gives the song life. Some songs may benefit from a click, but an unchanging tempo can sure make for a boring song if you aren't careful.
 
It's not "feel" it's sloppy
and in 2017 going on 2018- sloppy sounding bands ain't going to cut it

especially when most of the popular music today is basically robotic anyway
 
...Or you could become a master editor in your DAW and 'fix' the drummers track so that it's dead-on (assuming that he or she is close in the first place). Yeah, that would be a lot of fun. lol. And since you're in the band, you probably couldn't charge the drummer for all the extra time it might take to do that.

When I was younger we recorded without a click and thought it was cool - I was surprised later in life at how much tighter and more refined things sounded when everything was locked in and wish that we would have known to do that then. There are millions of recordings that are played to a click and all synced up - and still have a lot of feeling. But as others said too - if someone is unwilling to do that, maybe it's because they don't want to view themselves as needing to work at that skill.

Good luck - hope it works out and you guys get the end result you're looking for and it rocks!
 
steadystate said:
Whether or not a click is appropriate depends largely on the song. When I listen to my favorite old albums, I often hear awkward tempo changes (sometimes due to edits, sometimes due to playing), but it doesn't bother me. In fact, it gives the song character and can greatly enhance its emotional impact. I've made tempo maps for countless classic rock songs, and the tempo can vary all over the place, even with a straight beat. Drum fills can be rushed or stretched. It is what gives the song life. Some songs may benefit from a click, but an unchanging tempo can sure make for a boring song if you aren't careful.
Click to expand...

+1

Music that does not connect on an emotional level suffers from more issues than a click track could ever fix. Various punk and alt-rock movements have historically proven that you don't need sonic perfection in order to make this connection. I've seen firsthand how the insistence of a click track can kill the vibe and spontaneity (valuable, and sometimes evasive to capture on a studio recording) of an otherwise good, representative performance. That said, if you feel the end product is significantly improved by virtue of tracking to a click, then there's your answer.
 
I think it depends on genre. Many top level pro drummers would be held back in a big way by a click and also don't need it to sound robotic when needed. Not being able to do micro temp adjustments for feel and slow downs at ends, etc etc would be a problem. There's two issues, if you need a click track to stay in time that is a talent deficiency, if you can't play to a click for songs that benefit from one you've also got room to improve.
 
It depends on the music and it depends on the musicians. Some music requires a more loose feel, others need to be as tight as a metronome. Now you can say punk music, or jazz, doesn't need a click. But if the musicians are sloppy, a click will definitely improve the recording.

If you want to add more layers to the music, extra guitar tracks, more synths, backing tracks, then recording with click is mandatory. Yeah, maybe you can fix it afterwards in the DAW, I've done that with some recordings, it takes friggin' FOREVER! Don't make life unnecessarily harder for yourself then it has to be. And if the band still refuses, charge them for your time fixing their mistakes.

Some say a click maybe good for in the studio, but not on stage. As it would kill that magic moment. But then again a few gigs will be magic, many will be okay, and way too many will be shi te. I've seen bands ruined because they couldn't get in the zone when it mattered most. Like at a battle of the bands. At least when you play live to a click you will be constant and you can then plan a show that will always be good. Too many bands count, aim, hope or prey for that magic moment, when they forget that magic doesn't always happen when you want it, you have to plan and work for it. Just look at a concert recording of any of the major acts. You think that when the singer does something extraordinary that sets the crowd on fire it was spontaneous? Could be, but its far more likely it was scripted from start to finish. Every move, gesture, act or pose.
 
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