Band wants me to consider In Ears....

[dpeterson]

Actually this just is not true in my experince. Yes to get custom molds and $800 triple drivers will obviously be of higher quality, but the single driver buds that come with most IEM packages are not horrible garbage that everyone seems to say they are.

I've used the generic ones that came with my Carvin IEM's for a long time. They don't slip around and they are perfectly comfortable, and most importantly sound great.

I just don't understand this culture of weekend warriors thinking they need tour grade gear to play local pubs and bars.

Reminds me a pic that was posted,
-Musician
Someone whom puts $5,000 worth of gear into a $500 vehicle to drive 50 miles, spend 8 - 10 hours setting up and playing for $100 pay.

Going to disagree a bit here. Your argument could also translate to our choice of preamp.... why have an axefx if a pod does the same thing?... it's not as bad as people say. There is a huge difference between the crappy buds that come with systems and real IEMs. If the cheap ones work for you great.

As guitarists we tend to overdo a lot of things, we try to emulate our hero's. Tour grade gear = less issues at a gig, and life of the item, resale value etc. Compare it to buying a cheap cordless drill at harbor freight, vs a nice dewalt or Makita. for a few uses, works fine, now add 100, 1000 uses, the cheap one will wear out.

I switched to IEMS when I got sick of the volume wars every band eventually has, and I want to protect the hearing I have left. I've had cheaper iem systems, and most of the time they worked fine without a hitch. Got into some tough RF environments, and the true colors started to show.

Bottom line, do we need all this fancy crap? no. Does it make my life easier? yes. The less stuff I have to worry about means I can focus on performing, nothing worse than not being able to hear yourself.

 

[Severed]

Going to disagree a bit here. Your argument could also translate to our choice of preamp.... why have an axefx if a pod does the same thing?... it's not as bad as people say. There is a huge difference between the crappy buds that come with systems and real IEMs. If the cheap ones work for you great.

1st of all, in no way whatsoever can you "translate" what I am saying into an Axe FX vs POD comparison. I'm talking about the earbuds, not the IEM unit anyways.
2nd I actually spent some time comparing the specs, and demoing in person, and quality of the buds that came with the Carvin's and with friends of mine that have spent the money and have dual and triple driver custom buds. I'm not wasting my time trying to convince anyone, I test stuff in person for myself as I am going to be using it, and like I already said, obviously the higher price is higher quality, my argument is however, that this does not mean the included buds are crappy garbage and you can't expect a quality experience unless you go custom molds and custom 3rd party buds. It's like you think the included buds are the same quality as $5 no name plastic buds you can get @ dollarama lol or like the included buds that come with your iPhone or Samsung or something.... simply not true.

As guitarists we tend to overdo a lot of things, we try to emulate our hero's. Tour grade gear = less issues at a gig, and life of the item, resale value etc. Compare it to buying a cheap cordless drill at harbor freight, vs a nice dewalt or Makita. for a few uses, works fine, now add 100, 1000 uses, the cheap one will wear out.

Again.... to label something as "cheap" because it's not the top of the line, most expensive product available? This is the culture I am talking about, and is simply not true. Saying it will wear out simply because it dose not cost as much is kinda reaching.... Just using your example, I actually own a Makita skill saw and a Black & Decker skill saw. They both do the exact same job, yet the Makita cost 3x as much, and after 20 years, the "cheaper" Black & Decker is still working as well as the day I bought it.

I switched to IEMS when I got sick of the volume wars every band eventually has, and I want to protect the hearing I have left. I've had cheaper iem systems, and most of the time they worked fine without a hitch. Got into some tough RF environments, and the true colors started to show.

I've played stages where other guys are using Shure and the Sennheiser IEM systems and they had drop outs. Our vocalist has issues with her Shure wireless mic on occasion as well. I have yet to experience a drop out with the Carvin. I'm not claiming it's better than any other system, just stating my experience with it. As for quality, it matches specs with Shure and Sennheiser in the same price range ($800 - $1000 CDN). I don't consider any of these "cheap" gear. I also use line 6 Relay G50 for guitar wireless and again have not had a dropout in 6 years and at least 400 uses (I use it always, rehearsal, practice, and performances).

Bottom line, do we need all this fancy crap? no. Does it make my life easier? yes. The less stuff I have to worry about means I can focus on performing, nothing worse than not being able to hear yourself.

I agree to a point, but in the same respect, the argument reads like saying "if you don't have a Lamborghini Veneno, you are just driving a cheap crappy vehicle and will never have a decent driving experience." :roll

Again I am not claiming lesser quality gear to be equal to top of the line pro tour grade quality or that it will sound as good, but I can't emphasize enough that it simply is not the "cheap" "crappy" "garbage" many are making it out to be. You know what his really reminds me of? The guy that goes and buys a new Tube amp, and then also will go drop a load on NOS tubes without even using the included tubes, claiming factory tubes are cheap crappy garbage.

Anyways, it's all good. I spent the time trying stuff out and found that it's not the huge night and day difference. Maybe it's cause we use our own Behringer X32 and the quality of the audio is pristine. Maybe it's cause I have 25 years experience and know how to dial in a mix. Maybe it's because there is a point where throwing more money at something isn't going to improve things enough to make it cost effective?


Anyways, I guess we can agree to disagree.

 

[dpeterson]

Again I am not claiming lesser quality gear to be equal to top of the line pro tour grade quality or that it will sound as good, but I can't emphasize enough that it simply is not the "cheap" "crappy" "garbage" many are making it out to be. You know what his really reminds me of? The guy that goes and buys a new Tube amp, and then also will go drop a load on NOS tubes without even using the included tubes, claiming factory tubes are cheap crappy garbage.

I had the carvin em900 for at least 3 years, it finally would not come out of mute mode, when did it do it? 5 minutes before show time. This was no fun. I have 2 others in the band still using those systems without fail. I upgraded to the sennheiser, and it's been flawless. There are benefits. Is the carvin junk? no. Could the Sennheiser crap out on me? sure. The buds that came with it, sure you can use, but the cables are flimsy, and the sound quality was not as good as my shure single drivers, and nowhere near my triple driver customs. Custom buds also fit perfectly and are ok to wear for 2 hours without your ears hurting. And in the end they are not really that expensive. 300-400 bux, compared to what these idiots pay for Beats headphones?

I also did the small mixer, bunch of splitters thing for a few years, until we sprung on the x32 rack, again could have kept the old way, but the new stuff is so much nicer.

I totally agree you can get by with lower line stuff, but if you have the coin, why not?

 

[chris]

There's a functionality vs frivolity thing though. If the cheap stuff has bad connections and flimsy cables, those are obviously bad. But if the cheap stuff functions well and won't break, that's the stuff being discussed.

From basic mixer to x32, that's also added functionality. But going from a single driver to a quad, when a single driver is honestly perfectly great and sounds good might be a bit frivolous. Especially if you don't hear the difference. It's a tough discussion point honestly.

Then again, music is a strange beast. It seems like the very successful local gig guys have the $300 guitar and a few pedals and gig all the time, while the guys with the $2000+ guitars and serious rigs play only a few times a month for $80 a gig!

 

[barhrecords]

Then again, music is a strange beast. It seems like the very successful local gig guys have the $300 guitar and a few pedals and gig all the time, while the guys with the $2000+ guitars and serious rigs play only a few times a month for $80 a gig!

Agree!

To me its putting effort / energy into the music and performance vs. the gear. The gear takes care of itself as you move up the musical food chain.

 

[UnsungHeroGuitars]

I'll throw my 2-cents in the mix and try not to stir the pot

...

...

What a fantastically detailed post Joe!

We don't run any wedges on stage. Myself and the other guitar player are running AXE FX II's direct. The bass player runs a rack-mount Sansamp RBI direct and the drummer is running Jobeky drums with mesh heads and triggers, Smartrigger cymbals all feeding Superior Drummer on a Macbook. The Macbook feeds the GLD80 desk via a CAT5 cable to the Dante interface. So essentially we have a silent stage with no mic bleed. The FOH gear consists of a pair of active 18" RCF subs and Fulcrum active tops. The drums sound as big as a barn with sparkling detail and punch. The AXE FXs sound great (imagine that) and the end result is very pleasing to the ear both out front and in our 'ears' mix. So all-in-all it's take a while to get to this point but we're all very happy with the end result.

Yep, that's an awesome rig. I've never found myself to be envious of anyone else's set up before... until we assembled that together and honed it into a very slick machine!

I have my good friend Clive (Unsung Hero Guitars here on the forum) to thank for all the work that went into our system. He traveled from the UK to California on several occasions to get us dialed in. He's a master at this stuff.

Shucks...

It was an absolute honour and a pleasure - I'd do it all again in a heartbeat too!

It's also kind of crazy to look at that piccy and think that I'm in that photo (albeit tough to pick out on the other side of the kit!) sharing that stage on the other side of the world with you!!!

 

[Big Joe Daddy]

Here's a better view Clive. Those Aurasonics look to fit you rather well! 8)

 

[UnsungHeroGuitars]

Yep! Aurisonic ASG-2 for a whole lot of win!

Aurisonics | Hear it, Live it…

 

[flump]

At this point I'd check out the new Shure PSM300.

I think it's 800 bucks for the metal pack option. Comes with the SE215's. If you don't like the 215's try and sell them for 50 bucks or so, and use that 250 (from the $1000 budget) to get a better set of IEMs. You'll have a quality wireless system and good buds for a grand.

 

[johnrobbfl]

At this point I'd check out the new Shure PSM300.

I think it's 800 bucks for the metal pack option. Comes with the SE215's. If you don't like the 215's try and sell them for 50 bucks or so, and use that 250 (from the $1000 budget) to get a better set of IEMs. You'll have a quality wireless system and good buds for a grand.

I was going to get the PSM300 but ended up getting the Sennheiser EW300 G3 for $700 brand new and couldn't pass it up. The body pack is so small and light.

I'm just over $1,000 for my system with molded triple driver buds.

 

[boltrecords]

You'll be fine then.
1964 are popular, terrible customer service
UE are popular, but have quality control and customer service issues
JH Audio sound incredible with great customer service

I was talking at least $500 on IEM buds, $1000 would be better, gets you into quad-driver land. If you're talking $1000 including IEM transmitter and receiver, then that's not enough for anything decent unless you can find a used set of transmitter/receivers or are going hard-wired.

I have JH audio 16's and they are absolutely amazing. My suggestions is Go stereo and definitely don't go cheap. Especially with ear buds. Remember that if you get cheap custom molds you can't sell them if you decide to upgrade so go big early so that you're not wondering if the next step up is going to be better.

Stereo makes a huge difference. Also, get a system that has decent headroom. Some of the mono systems clip very easily. I use the sennheiser ew300 G3. Good system but a little noisy IMHO. I'm still exploring better options. But it works for now.

Finally, definitely have your own monitor mixer on stage. My band used an allen and heath mixwiz for a few years. We just recently switched to a behringer x32
Which sounds 1000x better and is much more functional with the app systems. No running back and forth to the board all night. Never rely on sound techs to control your mix for you.

One other thing, if you're not running your own FOH, make sure you get Xlr channel splitters. So that the feed goes to both your board and the FOh. That way the in ear signal is not effecting the foh.


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[dpeterson]

With the x32 you can do both front and monitors, so you don't "need" to have splitters. For gigs where we don't do our FOH, we have a splitter snake we use to tap in before the mics go to FOH, so he doesn't have any way to screw up our mix. We are going to start running our own FOH all through the x32, going to use the first 16 channels for foh, next 16 for our monitors, so we can totally separate everything.

I too thought the EWG3 was noisy, just had a hiss to it with nothing coming through. But it disappears once the band comes in of course. I think that hiss might be to let you know the pack is on so you don't blast your ears out by running the volume up on it and when the audio kicks in BLAM.

Stereo does make an enormous difference, especially on the fatigue front. Once I panned everyone in their own separate space, I notices much less fiddling with levels during the night from everyone.. set at sound check if need be and go. Last 3 gigs we haven't touched levels, plug in turn on pack and go.

 

[boltrecords]

With the x32 you can do both front and monitors, so you don't "need" to have splitters. For gigs where we don't do our FOH, we have a splitter snake we use to tap in before the mics go to FOH, so he doesn't have any way to screw up our mix. We are going to start running our own FOH all through the x32, going to use the first 16 channels for foh, next 16 for our monitors, so we can totally separate everything.

I too thought the EWG3 was noisy, just had a hiss to it with nothing coming through. But it disappears once the band comes in of course. I think that hiss might be to let you know the pack is on so you don't blast your ears out by running the volume up on it and when the audio kicks in BLAM.

Stereo does make an enormous difference, especially on the fatigue front. Once I panned everyone in their own separate space, I notices much less fiddling with levels during the night from everyone.. set at sound check if need be and go. Last 3 gigs we haven't touched levels, plug in turn on pack and go.

Yes. As I said. Get a splitter if you're Not running front of house so you can separate the signals. In ears vs foh.


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[Severed]

I have JH audio 16's and they are absolutely amazing.

Starting @ $1150 USD they had better be amazing lol.....

 

[boltrecords]

Starting @ $1150 USD they had better be amazing lol.....

They will give 20% off if you call them with your bands website or bio. That's what they did for us.
Killer deal for the best quality.


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[Eanna]

Just FYI, I use MiPro for IEM & Beyerdynamic Opus for guitar. AFAIK Mipro OEM's Beyerdynamic wireless equipment. Spares are interchangeable and even better, these half-rack units use the same type plate connector enabling them to join up and share a 1U space in my rack. Quality is top notch, I totally take these units for granted, neither has missed a heartbeat in the 6 years I've had 'em.

 

[SteveE9C6]

I would like to echo the sentiment regarding Alien Ears. I have used Westone and UE. I bought the Alien Ear triple driver molds about one year ago and have been quite happy with them. I am retired from the road but I've done thousands of gigs from bars to mega stadium shows and think IEM are the only way to go. I'm now playing only in a worship setting with 8-10 on stage, all IEM. The system is a Shure based system though I use my own personal Audio Technica M3L transmitter.

 

[s0c9]

The problem with IEM's is the same as guitars processors.. there's plenty out there, and personal choice becomes a MAJOR factor in going with any particular product. You get what you pay for!!~

I recently upgraded to the Senn G3 from the Carvin EM900. Night and day? NO!
But the extra features and "pilot signal" sure help audio quality, as does the use of the wires to your buds as extra antennae. I've also used the PSM200 with the E215's, the Carvin with 1964 Quads and the Senn with the 1964's also. Senn EI4 buds have not been removed from the plastic seal, so can't say about those!

What I have now works great!! There's not much between the Carvin and the PSM200 (now superseded by the 300), but Carvin is stereo, 200 is not. I'd go with the Carvin again, given the choice between that and the 200. PSM300 - no exposure.

I've been down the cheap, the wired, the cheap wireless, cheap buds, universal buds and finally custom molds routes. If there's one thing I've learnt the hard way - save up and buy a decent IEM wireless system. DON'T CHEAP OUT!! You'll HATE it and blame the equipment. I could have bought a REALLY GOOD IEM system 4 times over with the $$ I spent on all the "stuff" I accumulated on the way to ending up with my current IEM rig. Senn G3/1964 Quads, used most weekends.

Another thing... give it time to get used to IEM's. Guitar players seem to have the toughest time going IEM as many can't handle the loss of that amp-in-the-room feel that goes with the sealed ears! But.. if you're using an AxeFx, you should have an easier transition than the tube guys!

 

[aleclee]

For wireless, I'd go with one of the big names: Shure, Sennheiser, A-T. Doesn't seem like the budget stuff lasts/works as well. Carvin gets generally good reviews but for the same money I'd probably go with a used "name" system. My band used A-T and they were pretty good. I've recently treated myself to a PSM300. I did some checks with it last weekend and will start using it with my band this week.

1964 are popular, terrible customer service

Really? When I was looking at IEMs last year, I was hard-pressed to find any criticisms of 1964. My experience with them was flawless. The only issue was that my ear shape didn't allow for use of silicone tips but that's definitely not their fault.

 

[boltrecords]

The problem with IEM's is the same as guitars processors.. there's plenty out there, and personal choice becomes a MAJOR factor in going with any particular product. You get what you pay for!!~

I recently upgraded to the Senn G3 from the Carvin EM900. Night and day? NO!
But the extra features and "pilot signal" sure help audio quality, as does the use of the wires to your buds as extra antennae. I've also used the PSM200 with the E215's, the Carvin with 1964 Quads and the Senn with the 1964's also. Senn EI4 buds have not been removed from the plastic seal, so can't say about those!

What I have now works great!! There's not much between the Carvin and the PSM200 (now superseded by the 300), but Carvin is stereo, 200 is not. I'd go with the Carvin again, given the choice between that and the 200. PSM300 - no exposure.

I've been down the cheap, the wired, the cheap wireless, cheap buds, universal buds and finally custom molds routes. If there's one thing I've learnt the hard way - save up and buy a decent IEM wireless system. DON'T CHEAP OUT!! You'll HATE it and blame the equipment. I could have bought a REALLY GOOD IEM system 4 times over with the $$ I spent on all the "stuff" I accumulated on the way to ending up with my current IEM rig. Senn G3/1964 Quads, used most weekends.

Another thing... give it time to get used to IEM's. Guitar players seem to have the toughest time going IEM as many can't handle the loss of that amp-in-the-room feel that goes with the sealed ears! But.. if you're using an AxeFx, you should have an easier transition than the tube guys!

You're absolutely right. The problem is that most people give recommendations of the lower end Buds stating that they are very happy with the quality but they have never compared them to the higher end In ears. There really isn't a way to go out and test the different choices and find ones that work for you. That's why I totally agree with the idea of "Save up and get the best you can afford". In the end youll be happier. I had cheapos, middle of the road and then high end. There was a significant increase in quality with every upgrade. I just wish I hadn't wasted all the money on the previous models ive owned.

One thing I can say for sure. STAY AWAY FROM LIVEWIRES In Ears.