Balancing Cleans to Distortion

Bendkill

Member
So, I have a killer distortion sound and an awesome clean tone but I always find my "ocd" kicks in and I just can't seem to have the perfect volume levels for the clean tone. One moment it's just perfect then it's louder than the distortion and then another moment it's too quiet compared to the distortion. Are there any methods for achieving the best clean tone volume compared to a distortion volume. I left my preset linked as well.
 

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The general answer is that compared to clean tones, distortion/OD is relatively compressed (smaller dynamic range). Thus depending on how hard you play or what the context is, one might be louder/softer than the other.

For example, the green curve below represents clean amp response which is relatively linear (x = input, y = output), while the red curve represents an overdriven (saturated) amp and compression. There will be a point where a given input will the have similar volume (curves cross) but below or above that point one will sound louder/softer and they will switch.

56041


What is your normal context for evaluating loudness: playing solo (e.g. studio/bedroom), playing in a band, recording in a mix?
 
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For now it would be bedroom playing but eventually I want to start running the ax8 through an interface and record in a mix.
 
Right, so depending on what you are playing an how hard, they will rarely be at the same volume. For recording it mostly doesn't matter as you can adjust the gain of tracks as needed for the mix.

Course, there is always the guitar volume (input volume) or a volume pedal (e.g. for output volume) for real-time volume tweaks. :grin:
 
I think our perception of volume & tone can change from day to day. I know mine does. Since cleans have a much wider dynamic range, get the levels set on the cleans first & then balance the distorted tones to that. Also, to deal with the perception changes, you could put a volume block in each preset, link it to global block & have it set to only change level by a small amount, maybe 10db range. Leave the expression pedal about in the middle position so you have room to either boost or cut the volume a little to quickly rebalance the levels as needed.
 
Yeah, and the overall playing volume (75 vs 80 vs. 85 dB) also affects relative subjective loudness of bass/treble which can be very different between cleans and distorted tones.
 
Some time ago I noticed that cleans are more reactive to my strumming than distortion. In fact we can say it the other way and will be more right: cleans are transparent and high gain compress the nuances of your playing...I could have a nice clean for arpeggios or soft passages, but the same volume level didn't work for energic chords because I hit the red!

I could use some compression to soften the peaks, but I love dynamic non-compressed cleans and that's why I have two sets for clean: soft clean and strong clean. The only difference is the level parameter in the amp block (you can see this padded clean for chords as the opposed to a boosted dirt for solos).
 
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As I use this more the AX8 is becoming more like my old setup. While I love to dial in heavy tones, my main go to setups are just passed breakup. I am going with filter blocks and overdrive pedals for boosts and leads. I have dialed back the input trim which has been a problem when I have gone front of house. My patches I dialed in loud at home (Austin Buddy patches I love) have the input trim pretty high and I found dialing this back has helped a lot to have a loud clean patch to the sound guys. In practice the other day using a Austin Buddy Dumble Amp patch I love, I was able to adjust it on the fly by just boosting the mids and I was immediately cutting through the mix.

To get a good clean to distortion volume match try backing off the input trim on your distorted tone and boosting the mids. At least that is what works for me. Those great recorded overdriven tones we love on recordings in reality just don't work as well in some band situations, especially if we are switching between cleans and distortion.
 
I use an APP called "Sound Level Meter" that I downloaded and installed onto my i Phone, I strum a chord using the clean setting and drive or distortion setting to see what the DB difference is. I adjust the scene or output to achieve the DB mix I am looking for. I always start with checking the AX8 level meter. I like to have the preset around -10 DB or so to start with. Level 1 Output at noon. Then I use the APP to assist with the transition from clean to drive or distortion.
 
Ive never touched on input trim. Am I missing something??
Relative to what? The topic of this thread?

Input Trim allows you to reduce or increase the signal level into the amp.

For example, many Fender amps have 2 inputs - one with lower input level and one higher. To simulate the lower input, set it to .500.

You can do all kinds of interesting things with it, like account for guitars with hotter pickups.
 
To add to the difficulty, EQ can have a major effect on how "loud" a channel sounds. I find most of the time when I combine clean and overdrive amps this is my biggest issue with how easy one or the other (mostly overdrive) stands out in the mix.

Rather than concerning yourself exclusively with stand alone volume, I would suggest setting them (volume or EQ or both) so that they each cut through your mix in similar ways. Since it's the mix that matters, stand alone tone/volume becomes less important.

Just my 2 cents. Good Luck!
 
I've found that a volume pedal after the amp and before the verb/delay solves all these problems.
 
If you need a volume pedal (block) to solve the problem then you're not balanced... which is the problem being discussed ;)

Yes and no. I think we are all saying it's not as simple as once and for all volume matching...

No true "objective balancing" is possible if the amps (e.g. clean vs. dirty) have different response curves (non-linearity / compression) because playing/attack variations (say of 20 dB) will lead to one or the other being louder at least on peaks. Second, subjectively, the combination of the reproduction SPLs (FM effect), relative EQ differences, and "mix context" (instruments + room) makes it a relative balancing act.

So maybe we can get it ~close~ within 3-6 dB with our 'normal' average playing not in a mix, but doesn't real-time volume adjustment give us finer control over all those unbalancing factors?
 
Yes and no. I think we are all saying it's not as simple as once and for all volume matching...

No true "objective balancing" is possible if the amps (e.g. clean vs. dirty) have different response curves (non-linearity / compression) because playing/attack variations (say of 20 dB) will lead to one or the other being louder at least on peaks. Second, subjectively, the combination of the reproduction SPLs (FM effect), relative EQ differences, and "mix context" (instruments + room) makes it a relative balancing act.

So maybe we can get it ~close~ within 3-6 dB with our 'normal' average playing not in a mix, but doesn't real-time volume adjustment give us finer control over all those unbalancing factors?
I guess the point of my comment was that if you need to adjust the volume to make it balanced, then by definition it isn't balanced ;)
 
I guess the point of my comment was that if you need to adjust the volume to make it balanced, then by definition it isn't balanced ;)
Correct, it's NOT balanced... nor CAN it be, as yyz67's graph illustrates.
I suspect most of us have been dealing with this issue for quite a while, and are aware of the difficulty of finding a "happy medium" where a quite compressed lead tone and a much more dynamic clean tone can still be feel "somewhat" in balance, in actual performance. But– at least speaking for myself– thoroughly understanding the issue isn't always enough to make the frustration completely go away... especially on quick plug 'n play/no soundcheck situations.
So much has to do with setting the levels of the patches, based on specific touch/dynamics of your playing (at least, for me). When I use the precise physical touch dynamics that I used when setting up the different patches, it's great. When, for one reason or another, I'm hitting harder, cutting thru a louder mix, or whatever... then the "balance" that was so correct for the last gig is now disturbingly wrong.
And THAT is where it can be helpful to have a post-amp volume pedal... to allow some form of compensation, in real time.
 
Correct, it's NOT balanced... nor CAN it be, as yyz67's graph illustrates.
I suspect most of us have been dealing with this issue for quite a while, and are aware of the difficulty of finding a "happy medium" where a quite compressed lead tone and a much more dynamic clean tone can still be feel "somewhat" in balance, in actual performance. But– at least speaking for myself– thoroughly understanding the issue isn't always enough to make the frustration completely go away... especially on quick plug 'n play/no soundcheck situations.
So much has to do with setting the levels of the patches, based on specific touch/dynamics of your playing (at least, for me). When I use the precise physical touch dynamics that I used when setting up the different patches, it's great. When, for one reason or another, I'm hitting harder, cutting thru a louder mix, or whatever... then the "balance" that was so correct for the last gig is now disturbingly wrong.
And THAT is where it can be helpful to have a post-amp volume pedal... to allow some form of compensation, in real time.
I get that. Maybe my playing is more consistent or maybe I actually use playing dynamics to compensate... I don't really know, but my stuff is pretty good for what I do.

To be honest my sense of balanced is not that everything is the same level. When I change from clean to crunch to solo they all have sightly different levels because they are serving a different function. My idea of balanced is that each sound is "appropriate" level for it's purpose.

Do whatever works for you - everyone has a different way of working.

My original comment about the volume pedal was really that it isn't a "fix"... It's just way to quickly adjust on the fly. More of a reaction to the wording I was replying to.
 
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