Back to a tube power amp / review about real speakers and power amps with the Axe II

My brother came to visit me about a month ago and he plays guitar too. So, I pulled out my Fender Twin and some pedals and let him play that, while I played my AXE through my RCF's and matrix/cabs. We jammed songs and played to backing tracks etc.... All I kept thinking the WHOLE time was how great that twin+pedals sounded and how sterile my AXE sounded in comparison. The twin just jumped through the room and the dynamics were incredible. I honestly hadn't played my tube amps and pedals for over a year and I think I forgot how good it sounded and also how good it FELT.

So, this led me to start running my AXE through my Bogner Shiva (el34) power section and real cabs. I had been using my matrix to power real cabs along side FRFR, but when I ran the AXE into a real tube power section, it was noticeably better feeling to me.... still not quite on par vs. the twin+pedals, but to me it was an improvement over the AXE+matrix for certain amp tones. The downside is by disabling power amp sims, you lose a lot of functionality for many amp types, they become very clean and sort of sterile. Either way, I obtained a VHT 2902 and played that for about 2 weeks. It was great, but still, something was missing... I tried a variety of settings/tweaks with power amp sims on/off, advanced parameter tweaks etc.etc.

So, then I decided to try my Bogner with the 4CM, sometimes using AMP sims from the AXE, and sometimes using my Bogner as a preamp with real pedals and using the AXE for effects (verb, delay, chorus, etc.) After I did some experimenting, I found I could get some great amp tones by running the amp block IN FRONT of my Shiva set for clean. This was the best way I could get amp tones from the AXE.

I'm real anal about my tones and any noise etc... so I kept trying different scenarios trying to make the AXE work.... here's my main problem with each set up:

AXE+Direct/FRFR = Awesome tones, flexibility, simple set up, BUT I just cant' get with an FRFR system, I don't like that disconnected control room sound and feel.
AXE+Matrix/Cab = Great tones, but guitar cab sounds and feels a touch flat, lack of oomph and response. When cranked the oomph and response is there, but you loose dynamics.
AXE+Real Tube amp (power amp sims off)/Cab = Lots of dynamics and punch, "amp in the room" sound and feel, BUT couldn't really get 100% happy with the amp tones. Many amps sound the same and are still lacking some character
AXE+Real Tube amp via 4CM (power amp sims on)/Cab = Tones are really fizzy on top and although more of the character has returned, plenty of dynamics and punch, but required lots of tweaking to get rid of a shrill fizziness. Also 4cm adds a tiny bit of hiss (see point above about being anal).

During these experiments, I would move the FXL block thereby changing what blocks were in front of the Shiva, and which ones were in the loop. Surprisingly the best option for me was to use an AMP block in front of the Shiva (running clean). I could get some great hi gain tones, clean tones, mid gain tones were a little underwhelming... Also the pedal sims in front of the Shiva were also a little underwhelming...

However, after all the experimenting was said and done, it's really hard to beat a real tube amp thru and thru. So, I've gone a step further and at band rehearsal last night, I ran real pedals in front of my Shiva, the AXE in the loop for effects and I said.... THERE IT IS..... it's over for me.... I'm back to full tube amps. I am keeping the AXE in my signal for all my effects loop processing, but for my live rig, thats where I'm at now. I feel kind of weird about it to be honest because I've been on the AXE wagon for 2 years now and thought about selling my tube amps several times. And I LOVE the AXE when you need to go direct, or for recording etc, it CANNOT be beat. But, when I want to rock out with the band, or in my music room etc. you just can't beat the real thing IMO. It's funny because I forgot just how flexible my Shiva with a few pedals can be. Add in the incredible effects of the AXE in the loop, and it's a very flexible rig. I play rock covers so I need to do country, classic rock, pop rock, blues, etc. etc.

The cool thing in all of this is if I'm really craving something I can't get with my Shiva, then I can plug into the AXE/direct and I've still got everything I've ever had with the AXE.

So, the end of the story is this:

Real pedals/Tube Amp/AXE in the loop/Cab = PERFECT

Back to playing, less tweaking...
 
JGR said:
+1 It's just a matter of knowing how do dial in the right combination of advanced parameters. Once you do that, a good flat PA style power amp (not Matrix) can take you way beyond what you can do with conventional gear IME. I can understand how some folks might have difficulty dialing it in, but no way I would want to run tube power with the Axe - it puts a huge limitation on the overall flexibility in terms of volume, range of tones, and portability.
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What's wrong with the Matrix compared to other SS power amps?
 
I tried the Matrix GT1000 last weekend. Running trough my custom 2x12.

Had to take down 125-240-500-750-1k in the global eq a little bit (to match my HK stage monitors). After that it sounded panzer!!
I tried my Mesa 50/50 some time ago, but i liked the monitors better. I may have to try it again, just for fun.
What i like best with the stage monitors, is that they are directed towards me. I can then play shitloud without anyone else complaining. My sound elsewhere on stage is not very loud, even though to me it is. But we got our own PA, with one or two monitors for each bandmember + sidefills if there is room for it. And we also have 10 separate monitor channels on the mixer, so we get what we want from our guys in FOH.
 
This is all very interesting, and I tend to agree that a great "in the room" experience can be achieved when running the Axe Fx through a tube power amp/guitar cab. The thing I've found, is that it has to be the "right" tube power amp. I've tried several tube power amps, and there can be significant differences in tone and feel. While I can get very, very close with my Carvin power amp, as others have mentioned, there is still "something" missing when compared to a tube amp. There seems to be an interaction happening between a real tube amp and speaker that is just not the same with a SS amp and speaker. FRFR is another story, and IMO, going back and forth between real guitar cab and FRFR can really screw with your head. You start comparing them, which is a mistake, and can be very frustrating. It's all about experimenting and finding what you like (or in some cases can live with).
 
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I tried it with my 2/50mesa an old version with two Marsall 1/12cabs 1912,,was fantastic !!feel tone bottom end very happy,
Although we used it with 2/90 Mesa with 4/12cab vht and was ok,not bad.i don't know maybe was the cab....
 
well the guy who was selling me the mesa 50/50 bagged out on me so that isn't coming. :(

I wonder how it would sound through he loop of a Mesa Mark IV loaded with 6L6's and EL-34s
 
Tremonti said:
Mesa 2:90 is a great power amp that is built like a tank. But....my Matrix GT1600FX was so close to it in sound that I sold the Mesa years ago and just use the Matrix now. It's a lot lighter and no tubes to replace or worry about.
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Tremonti
Didn’t you also have a GT800 or GT1000 some time back? And if so what are you liking about the 1600 compared to those amps?

kmanick said:
I wonder how it would sound through he loop of a Mesa Mark IV loaded with 6L6's and EL-34s
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I use to run the Standard with the 4 cable method and my Mark IV, sounded real good!
started with just using the effects and using the Mark IV’s preamp section then after time started using that plus some of the Axe Fx preamp sims and then pretty quickly just used the Axe Fx. BTW I had power amp sims off. Although a simul-class amp I got best results running class A with 6L6’s. I had tried some EL34’s I had but I just felt the 6L6’s treated the majority of the amp sims better. But I could be bias (no pun intended) just look at my user name.

Speaking of the Mark IV I was playing it allot yesterday, I really have not played it to speak of for three years or better but it is going to become part of a trade in deal and of course I had to make sure everything was good. I was having second thoughts! But it left me.
 
Hmmm... the Mark IV was "my amp" before I went Axe FX. I too,ran it with all 6L6's ,but I was wondering if I ran El-34's in class A I could run it like that with the marhsal based models and run
it in simul class with the the Mesa models. did you ever try that. I wonder if you'd actually hear a difference, it would be kind of cool both types of tubes in one power amp with a flip of a switch.
 
I had a Mk IV for 17 years. Tried EL-34's at least four times in the outside sockets. Never liked it. I think the OT's were designed for 6L6's and the El-34's just sounded lame. I had great success putting 6V6's in the outsides (on tweed power). Made the Mk VI a 25 watt amp and you could crank it and get great tones.

I still don't know why I got rid of that amp.
 
Did some live recordings of practice a couple weeks back and did not like what I was hearing. The Axe seem rather noisy and washed out. I decided to plug into the old Mark IV collecting dust and at the end of the day I ended up adding a Triaxis to the rig. Triaxis, 2:90 and the AXE FXII seems to fit best for me right now. Obviously this could change tomorrow, haha!
 
No I never really approached it like that, in theory sounds like a good idea.

But I am like “scorch” like him I have tried the EL34/6L6 combination a few times never really worked out for me, but know others who love it. (Different Strokes) For me I did like what it did to the cleans R1 a bit darker for sure but nice, R2 I could have gone either way but R3 as far as I was concerned, it just destroyed that channel (and not in a good way) Running the EL34’s by themselves Class A, the amp got more darker compressed, maybe I like certain things with R1 in this mode but everything else, (not for me)

So why I am adding this? I know what you mean with the EL34 flavor and it is there to some degree, but it’s not perfect either, very dark and compressed, something that allot of real Marshall power amps are not.
scorch said:
I had a Mk IV for 17 years. Tried EL-34's at least four times in the outside sockets. Never liked it. I think the OT's were designed for 6L6's and the El-34's just sounded lame. I had great success putting 6V6's in the outsides (on tweed power). Made the Mk VI a 25 watt amp and you could crank it and get great tones.

I still don't know why I got rid of that amp.
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It might have something to do with the EL34’s run real cold in those outer sockets, like 5 watts or so a piece. My friend had the 6V6’s in his Mark IV and that did sound real good!

KINGSFAN said:
Triaxis, 2:90 and the AXE FXII seems to fit best for me right now. Obviously this could change tomorrow, haha!
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Well you are good company that is John Petrucci’s current rig basically.
 
scorch said:
I had a Mk IV for 17 years. Tried EL-34's at least four times in the outside sockets. Never liked it. I think the OT's were designed for 6L6's and the El-34's just sounded lame. I had great success putting 6V6's in the outsides (on tweed power). Made the Mk VI a 25 watt amp and you could crank it and get great tones.

I still don't know why I got rid of that amp.
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I'm with you on that, the Mark IV is such an awesome amp, I miss it too. I got the Mark V after having the IV, and it just didn't do it for me like the IV did. Sucks the IV doesn't have the 10/50/90 Wattage Option like the V does, otherwise I probably would have kept it. Such a dynamic touch sensitive amp. I didn't know you were able to put 6v6's in with 6l6's at the same time, I thought that was only 6l6's and el34's? When you have the 6l6s and 6v6s together, did it compromise the tone at all? Hmm, makes me rethink things.....Anyone want to buy my Axe FX II :) ........Me Kidding, or do I? :)
 
I've got a Mark IV(B) head arriving tomorrow :) found a clean one for a good price
very interested in hearing how the Axe sounds through it when in Class A, triode and tweed.
 
tomc3084 said:
I'm with you on that, the Mark IV is such an awesome amp, I miss it too. I got the Mark V after having the IV, and it just didn't do it for me like the IV did. Sucks the IV doesn't have the 10/50/90 Wattage Option like the V does, otherwise I probably would have kept it. Such a dynamic touch sensitive amp. I didn't know you were able to put 6v6's in with 6l6's at the same time, I thought that was only 6l6's and el34's? When you have the 6l6s and 6v6s together, did it compromise the tone at all? Hmm, makes me rethink things.....Anyone want to buy my Axe FX II :) ........Me Kidding, or do I? :)
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I ran the 6V6's for the last four years I had the Mk IV. JJ's could take the plate voltage. For about six months I was real careful about not having full voltage on the 6V6's but then I stopped worrying about it. Small club, just outside sockets and tweed voltage; large club, just flick it to full power. The 6V6's just kind of disappeared into the mix with the 6L6's. The 6V6's sounded great. You could crank the master to 8 or 9 and get a killer output tube grind at less than ear-bleed levels. It made the Mk IV an even more versatile amp.
 
Man, you guys are all on a slippery slope....

It didn't take me long, but once I went back to experimenting with tube amps (first a VHT 2902, then my Shiva), I started asking myself... hmmmm what if I just played my Shiva, with the AXE in the loop for effects. After that I said, why am I not just playing this amp? I dusted off a few old pedals and I was like .... 'damn this sound and FEELS so good'. Yeah, you can't get a convincing Vox sound, but I also realized, I'm not a Vox guy... Anyways, I did like the AXE + tube power better than AXE + FRFR (or SS amp + Cab), but then I realized, I liked my tube amp even better.... the AXE is a great effects unit though...
 
I basically only need my Axe FX for recording. so I figure if I'm not gigging and I don't need a dozen different tones I figured I do some experimenting.
I often just use my Axe for effects with my JSX, sometimes I run the amp models into it, sometimes I just use my CLR/Seismic.
Sometimes I use them all together.
I'm lucky I have all of this great gear at my disposal to play around with :)

Now if I could just get good at programming drums I'd be pumping out original material :(
 
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mark IV arrived tonight
man I forgot how much I loved this head.
didn't get a chance to hook up the Axe Fx to it yet but I've got a feeling I may not be needing the CLR
much longer. Class A, Triode /Tweed I got such a kick ass tone at a low volume, I was smiling ear to ear.
It came with EL-34's in the "A" sockets, I have to agree with everyone who said they destroy the lead
channel, luckily I have a fresh quad of 6l6's, those will go in tomorrow and then the Experimenting with the Axe begins :)
 
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