AxeFest UK monitor shootout

So ..... what I glean so far:

Passive and active FR monitors all sound differently - no big surprise there I guess.

You can't trust your Studio Monitors tone to translate accurately to any FR stage cab without some EQ intervention - that's a bit of a no brainer too.

If you don't have a local store stuffed full of a variety these things or get a chance to set up a preset or 2 using your preferred guitar/amp blocks/cab IRs with them and hear them at a 'Fest' then it's a complete trial and error exercise.

For more overall control it's perhaps better to keep your Live presets separate from Studio/DAW Presets to allow scope for more accurate fine tuning EQ wise on stage

For creating live performance presets the most important things are:

a) pick your 'Reference' monitor source and set a volume then stick with that always as the 'control' part of the process -

b) set up presets -

c) then (if you used Studio Monitors to set up presets) plug in your chosen stage monitors - turn em up to a reasonable stage volume and be prepared to fine tune the Global EQ to suit.

The monitor's volume level and the EQ curve's values should be written down (or maybe stored in a Global EQ user slot someday?) for a starting reference - tweak the curve to suit your stage requirements/ears at a live venue.

----------

With the caveat that every-ones' tones are a personal choice; perhaps a 'fill in the blanks' questionnaire like below would be an interesting even if not accurate indication of how things translate for Live FRFR users with Cab blocks in their chains:

Live Presets made with Active Studio Monitors as Reference users

For my FRFR setup I use [ ...model/type... ] active Studio Monitors to set up my live presets.

I then use these presets with [ ... type of FR amp/stage cab ...]

I find I need to tweak the EQ between Axe and amp/cab [ a lot/not much/very little/not at all ] to sound similar in perceived tone to my Studio Monitors.

Live Presets made with FRFR amp/cab as Reference source users:

For my FRFR setup I use [ ...model/type... ] FRFR stage monitors to set up my live presets.

If I then use these presets with [ ... type of Studio monitors ... ]

I find I need to tweak the EQ between Axe and studio monitors [ a lot/not much/very little/not at all ] to sound similar in perceived tone to my FRFR stage monitors.

-----------
 
luke said:
It clearly shows how building patches on a non-flat system leads to undesirable results when those patches get inserted into a another system, with that second system being either flat or simply different from flat is an an other fashion from the original system.
Click to expand...

been thinking about this some more.....
and two things spring to mind which are in a sense both good...

-- building patches on a non-flat system leads to undesirable results when those patches get inserted into a another system
how can you avoid this? because our tests revealed that different monitors, although 'flat' seem to have areas that are not as flat as you'd hope..

so... don't avoid it.. just do your thing

the things that spring to mind are:

thing 1: how often do you play through someone else's monitoring?
in my case the answer is never [cos I always get the cabs I ask for - cos they are extremely common / easy to get / hire]...
just choose the monitoring that fits your needs / budget best and dial-in to that...

lil' note: even if I used an FRFR system, I'd never make the mistake of placing my stage tone at the mercy of 'whatever monitoring the venue provides'
cos to my mind that is just inviting a whole world of hurt....
the first rule of your stage tone has to be: what you can keep under your own control, keep under your own control
because this will impact your performance...

thing 2: what about rigs that are not FRFR?
erm... I play through Marshall... lots of it... and that ain't flat at all..
the soundie will have a business as usual day with me...
mic in front of each cab and treat me just like every other thug with Marshall's that he has to mic up..
so there's nothing new or unusual about my setup either..
and my solution is the same as thing 1
just choose the monitoring that fits your needs / budget best and dial-in to that...

so... hands up who actually changes rig every time they gig in a different place ! !

the PA stuff:
a soundie will tech for a whole bunch of bands in his career with a massive range of rigs and tone types...
no matter if you give him your DI outs to poke straight into the desk
or if like me, you just prefer to have simple / ubiquitous requirements
he should be able to deal with you...
if your low end is a bit strong he'll sort it.. if it's too strong for his mics he'll ask you to sort it [global: out1 eq to the rescue]
no matter what though.. he will dial you in to his PA... and he is sat in the best place to do it..
I see too many folk in here fret about this...
the only control you have is your on-stage tone.. keep control of it..
and for everything else, just let the house eng / crew do their thing..
and if they're not so great, it wouldn't matter if diamonds and pearls fell out of your XLR's, they'll turn it all to sht anyhow..
so just focus on what matters most..
and that is you.. feeling great.. playing great.. and delivering the best possible performance that you can...

there's a good reason why I cannot go FRFR... I very rarely play live through my own speakers..
I cannot ask for the unusual / exotic and expect it to be there when I arrive..
I can't always explain my needs in detail to the promoter / soundie etc [cos I don't speak Italian, German, French, Japanese and my Spanish is shameful - sorry mum..]
but due to the technical rider, my 4x12 cabs are already there waiting for me when I arrive...
and I wander on stage to say 'hi' to the soundie who is already mic'ing my cabs...
I dial-in to my own 1960b's, and get 1960b [or 1960a] when I'm down route...
it's simple... it works.. I'm safe.. so I'm happy..

so.. the good things...
- you dial-in to your monitoring = you sound like you... which is perfect
- the soundie dials you into his PA

and if you place your monitoring needs in someone else's hands [especially if they're a bit "different"]
then you are asking for trouble...
 
Last edited:
maxdown said:
So ..... what I glean so far:
Click to expand...

what I'm gleaning is that the lack of true flatness with FRFR monitoring is much less of a prob than people think...
dial your tones into your monitoring at gig levels, save what you did as your "live presets", turn up at the show and go party..
and that really is about it...

I think some folk are making more of this than need be..
 
Or use in ears for your monitoring to eliminate more variables from the equation vs. a cabinet or wedge.

I can appreciate having a really really great stage mix, but on electric guitar, for gigs where I don't sing, I personally can get by with pretty lousy wedges. It's not ideal, but its not the end of the world either. It's only rock and roll.

But I like it,
Richard
 
Well I know true flatness is probably only a myth .... and could only be nearly achieved in a very carefully controlled 'tuned' environment using superlative equipment and a truck load of nerdiness.

But it's finding a combination of man cave gear and gig gear that doesn't sound like chalk and cheese when mated without a whole lot of foreplay is what I'm wanting to find ......

The HR dept. would call it 'inter-operational efficiency' - I call it 'I'm a lazy SOB' ;)
 
Some comments; all are IMHO:

All you can do when you are dialing is do it on an accurate sound platform at the SPL level you will be working with live. I prefer studio monitors because of this; they are as uncolored and accurate as can be (assuming your room is properly treated; your monitors are of certain quality and your ears are developed enough to know what you are doing).

On an ideal level, in a perfect world: how your own monitoring sounds needs to be inspiring to you; regardless of any other factor. Whether it sounds better or worse than the FOH or your studio rig; you need to be inspired on stage to play your best.

No matter what you do, the power of what you will ultimately sound like in the room is in the hands (and ears) of the FOH.

I approach it simply. One set of presets across all my guitars. I use those presets in any situation, any room, at any time because I know they sound good. What FOH does with my output is up to FOH; that is their job. I know my end of it well enough having played in live bands for over 30 years, running live sound and engineering/mixing/mastering semi-professionally (and as a musician, have done the direct-to-FOH/FRFR thing long enough) to know what I am giving them is good/right/quality/etc..

If I have to borrow other gear for any reason, I can make do in most any situation with any gear because I approach my craft as a performing musician in as professional a manner as possible. If all I can have (on some provided backline) is a crappy 112 amp as my onstage sound source, (assuming I have my AFXII) then so be it. I'll get through the gig. I'll still feed FRFR to FOH and know that they are getting the 'good stuff'.

There is a massive difference between all levels of supposed "FRFR" and that should surprise no one. I think in the past year we've finally come to a point where the level of gear and price points of said gear is now within reach of most serious guitarists. The AFXII is a professional level, expensive, powerful leading edge product. To think you can get the 'best' from it with cheaper inferior monitors was never a reality. You need to pair it with professional level top notch monitoring to make FRFR a musical and inspiring experience for the musician IMHO. I can work in any given situation; that's what I am paid to do when performing. Given the opportunity, my preference will always be for my own hand picked monitoring gear.

Again, IMHO. No problem with me if you disagree with me; no need to agree with me and no reason to debate the points I am sharing as opinions. Just adding another perspective to the equation and discussion.
 
I get in different moods and that usually determines to what extent I worry over the stage mix.

I'm most worried when I am singing.

Less so when I'm not.

If I am being lazy, then I just deal with whatever the house sound has. And that can be pretty lousy for the low rent gigs I play for fun.

Richard
 
This might be a bit of a coincidence but during the Dutch Axe-Fest, I played through several monitors:
my LEM T4MA's
a RCF nx12SMA
D&B (don't know which model)
Atomic Reactor
And all sounded rather good. Different but usable and good. Someone suggested I had made my presets especially for the LEM's but I didn't.
I use B&W DM602's at home. The are supposedly quite good speakers. Perhaps that's why my presets worked on all monitors.
 
Scott Peterson said:
Some comments; all are IMHO:

All you can do when you are dialing is do it on an accurate sound platform at the SPL level you will be working with live. I prefer studio monitors because of this; they are as uncolored and accurate as can be (assuming your room is properly treated; your monitors are of certain quality and your ears are developed enough to know what you are doing).
Click to expand...

Depends on the monitors I guess.
The low end extension of an 8" studio nearfields isn't going to be the same as a 12" speaker in the RCF of the Matrix monitors.
No matter how flat they are down to around 100hz there will be a drop off around 80hz and under 60hz you will hear little.
This is what I found at Axefest UK.
My patches had some frequencies that I don't hear through my monitors.
When I record I use high pass filters at around 80hz on guitar tracks to remove any ultra low end grunge.

Scott Peterson said:
On an ideal level, in a perfect world: how your own monitoring sounds needs to be inspiring to you; regardless of any other factor. Whether it sounds better or worse than the FOH or your studio rig; you need to be inspired on stage to play your best.
Click to expand...

No argument here.
 
Man, this is a great thread. I love it when people with this much combined experience with the Axe Fx spend time learning from mutual experience and some joint testing (not that kinda joint...).

A couple of things I've taken away from my tests is that sometimes a speaker cab sounds more neutral (or FRFR) because it does not reproduce a portions or portions of the frequency spectrum, or over-hypes it, so that whatever you feed it seems to respond the same. It takes a lot of testing to find if it is the preset or settings, or cab strength/weakness that generates the pleasing or nasty tones. In other words, the sound is the speaker. Others, of course, are more even tempered.

The above has lead me to an approach that started with the sound I wanted, and a good example of it to use for a reference, and then searching for a monitor capable of producing an accurate rendition of that with the Axe Fx. I have been fortunate to find a monitor that I can use as a basis component to build accurate versions of the main amp tones I want. As the guys noted here, that doesn't make it the best choice for anyone but me.

I don't think this is likely earth shattering for anyone here, but re-thinking my components based on the sounds I was looking for was a sort of revelation to me. It got me from "close" to "there." At this point in the journey, I actually have found a few sounds I even prefer over the "real" amps. The surprises keep coming.
 
Last edited:
octatonic said:
Depends on the monitors I guess.
The low end extension of an 8" studio nearfields isn't going to be the same as a 12" speaker in the RCF of the Matrix monitors.
No matter how flat they are down to around 100hz there will be a drop off around 80hz and under 60hz you will hear little.
This is what I found at Axefest UK.
My patches had some frequencies that I don't hear through my monitors.
When I record I use high pass filters at around 80hz on guitar tracks to remove any ultra low end grunge.

No argument here.
Click to expand...

That is why I have a subwoofer in my studio setup.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Forum Runner
 
MisterE said:
This might be a bit of a coincidence but during the Dutch Axe-Fest, I played through several monitors:
my LEM T4MA's
a RCF nx12SMA
D&B (don't know which model)
Atomic Reactor
And all sounded rather good. Different but usable and good. Someone suggested I had made my presets especially for the LEM's but I didn't.
I use B&W DM602's at home. The are supposedly quite good speakers. Perhaps that's why my presets worked on all monitors.
Click to expand...

Those weren't D&B, they were the now out of date dB Technologies M12-4+. Quite a bit of difference. Like you could get six dBs for one D&B? That one is passive so sixteen if you include the D&B amp.

Actually I liked my dB the least, as in they have a sharpness in the highs I usually dial out a bit in the Global EQ. LEMs were nicely balanced and RCF slightly darker and more... pleasant.
But the dBs are (were) cheap compared to the RCF (1/3) and really held out better than I expected. Aside from the sharpness and some directivity there really was nothing to be ashamed about.

Still. There's something to dream about. Really wishing to take a look at the 10SMA...
 
Last edited:
interesting debate all this....

out of interest.. is there anyone else out there that runs a similar non-FRFR rig like me..??
stereo power amp and conventional guitar cabs...
 
clarky said:
interesting debate all this....

out of interest.. is there anyone else out there that runs a similar non-FRFR rig like me..??
stereo power amp and conventional guitar cabs...
Click to expand...

When I run my Axe live, I do. Tho I don't use it live too often to be honest.
 
ahh... a thing I forgot to add which some may find of interest...

generally, the initial choices you make with kit are based upon past experience..
and as such I initially expected to run with my cab sims on through my backline...

previous fx-units I've used also had the option to shut down the cab sims, and having done so I found the highs in particular to be quite harsh..
the cab sims being on [despite running through my cabs] softened them some and led to a more pleasing tone overall..
ok.. so yes.. I had a 4x12 sim running through a 4x12 real.. but that was easy to eq out..

so... my first experience with my shiny new presets through my backline was with the sims on..
and I thought.. yeah.. sounds pretty good.. but the lows were a bit 'woofy' and the highs went walkabout..
but like before I thought I'd be able to dial it all back in.. kind of expected it...

and as before, I thought.. "before I go noodling with EQ, let's see how things shape up without the cab sims"
I shut em down... and.. bam ! ! !
the low end was immediately tighter and the highs returned..
but unlike other units I'd used before, the highs were beautiful and clear, but never harsh...
a very nice surprise...

I can't recall who right now, but in a previous post someone commented that my cab and power amp sims were off..
that's not quite true..
my power amp sims remained on, my cab sims were shut down..

so.. as per the prevailing advice coming from folks in here [including FAS]
I have to agree that shutting off the cab sims when running through real cabs is the way to go..

one last thing to add....
my poweramp has two modes.. linear and valvestate..
mine is set to valvestate.. it just seems to soften the highs a little and sounds a little yummier, but without choking off your definition..
 
Drama said:
When I run my Axe live, I do. Tho I don't use it live too often to be honest.
Click to expand...

there is something sort of 'special' about real 4x12 cabs.. especially when you run a few of them...
I adoringly refer to it as "the Marshall hug"..

the drummer counts in the first song of the set...
you hit that first power chord...
and somehow the tone and air etc just seems to wrap you up in this sort of 'hug'..
to my stoopid lil' brain, it makes me feel like "I have now assumed control" and my confidence glands get a nice lil' nudge in the right direction..
makes me walk a little taller [if this makes any sense at all...lmao]

the monitors we test were plenty loud... jeez.. surprisingly so...
but they just don't quite give you the 'hug'...
I've no idea what it is or how it works.. but I know what I feel..
and I think that when we ran the delta between the monitors and then my backline,
one or two others remarked on a similar feeling that the 4x12's give you... despite the actual tonality being impossibly close..
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom