• We would like to remind our members that this is a privately owned, run and supported forum. You are here at the invitation and discretion of the owners. As such, rules and standards of conduct will be applied that help keep this forum functioning as the owners desire. These include, but are not limited to, removing content and even access to the forum.

    Please give yourself a refresher on the forum rules you agreed to follow when you signed up.

Axe-fx vs Tube Amps... my first experience.

dsl

Experienced
FractalAudio said:
Master at 7.02 on the Recto model is WAY too high and will sound muddy. You should be around 3-4, maybe less.
Why do the Masters of the Rectos default to 5.00?

Is there a reason for this or is it just a starting point for all amp sims?
 

ML SOUND LAB

Cab Pack Wizard
Vendor
I would LOVE it if all the amp sims would automatically default to the correct/sweetspot master levels. Like Fenders could go up to 10 automatically and Rectos to 3,5. Maybe next firmware? It's a bit of a waste of time when making patches. I might be tweaking the amp settings for hours and then I remember: "aaahhh the master knob" and I go to axewiki to find the authentic settings for the amp sim. But that's just me.

There are some amps that default to 5 like the Bogners and they are "bad" with the default settings, especially depth at 5. Also the Fenders are quite unusable without the master cranked. I'm sure this would make many customers happy mr. FAS! :D
 

VegaBaby

Fractal Fanatic
Clark Kent said:
I would LOVE it if all the amp sims would automatically default to the correct/sweetspot master levels. Like Fenders could go up to 10 automatically and Rectos to 3,5...
+1
Maybe not too interesting for existing users who've read tips and information like that already, but for new customers who haven't spent much time on the forum, wiki or manual.

p.s. you mentioned Depth...these default to their correct values.
 

yek

Moderator
Moderator
dsl said:
FractalAudio said:
Master at 7.02 on the Recto model is WAY too high and will sound muddy. You should be around 3-4, maybe less.
Why do the Masters of the Rectos default to 5.00?

Is there a reason for this or is it just a starting point for all amp sims?
Yes, default for all amp sims.
 

dk_ace

Experienced
I tried the recto sims again last night (first time in a long time), and I found the master around 2 sounded like I remember my amp sounding at it's best. You can take the master higher than that, but then you have to start really messing with things to make it sound right. I also like the sag a good bit higher than the default to simulate the tube rectifier mode on the real amp.

With the recto 1 cab model, it really reminded me of my old amp. I missed it at first. And then I realized I just don't like that sound very much. It's good for what it is, but I just don't need that sound very much in a gig.

Anyway, keep in mind with some of these amps that they have massive power sections for the purpose of being able to get extremely loud before they start to clip. As for whether or not the masters should default differently, I'll leave that to Cliff but it would be really convenient.

I gigged a recto for something like three years numerous times a week, and the Axe-FX sounds like the real deal to me. I still wish we could change the power section in the amp block though, because I always liked EL34s better in my recto. Peter Frampton got some great sounds out of the recto pre run through a Marshall power amp. Ok, I'll let it go now...

D
 

biggness

Power User
Hey Mo, you ever try out the 5150/6505 model? That thing brings the br00tz rather well. Here is some settings that should get you started. :cool:

 

dsl

Experienced
Just wanted to see if anyone else thought this was a good idea.


Clark Kent said:
I would LOVE it if all the amp sims would automatically default to the correct/sweetspot master levels. Like Fenders could go up to 10 automatically and Rectos to 3,5. Maybe next firmware? It's a bit of a waste of time when making patches. I might be tweaking the amp settings for hours and then I remember: "aaahhh the master knob" and I go to axewiki to find the authentic settings for the amp sim. But that's just me.

There are some amps that default to 5 like the Bogners and they are "bad" with the default settings, especially depth at 5. Also the Fenders are quite unusable without the master cranked. I'm sure this would make many customers happy mr. FAS! :D
 

ML SOUND LAB

Cab Pack Wizard
Vendor
FractalAudio said:
I debated that a long time ago. There's pros and cons to both ways.
I guess the only downside is that volume levels would differ between different amp sims. But I bet if you make poll of which is more important VOLUME or TONE then TONE would win. Should I start a poll?
 

tgunn

Experienced
Clark Kent said:
FractalAudio said:
I debated that a long time ago. There's pros and cons to both ways.
I guess the only downside is that volume levels would differ between different amp sims. But I bet if you make poll of which is more important VOLUME or TONE then TONE would win. Should I start a poll?
I think volume already differs. Try switching between the two Shiva models. I'd be happy if initializing the amp block wouldn't always go back to the tube pre.
 

dsl

Experienced
Clark Kent said:
FractalAudio said:
I debated that a long time ago. There's pros and cons to both ways.
I guess the only downside is that volume levels would differ between different amp sims. But I bet if you make poll of which is more important VOLUME or TONE then TONE would win. Should I start a poll?
Yes.
 

hippietim

Fractal Fanatic
Back to the OP. Lose that QSC GX5. That's not a very good power amp. We had one of those for a while for a practice PA power amp - a Behringer 2500 blew it away (note that I am not advocating for the Behringer either). QSC makes a number of good power amps - the GX series just isn't in that list. We use the QSC PLX poweramps for mains and monitors now and they are very nice sounding. My Axe-FX runs direct and it sounds so much better with the PLX than when we rehearsed with the GX.

BTW, what speakers were you using?

Not to take a shot at the OP or anyone else, but I see this sort of rig put together all the time. Folks spend a bunch of money on an Axe-FX or the Eleven and then get the cheapest amplification system they can whether it's a cheap FRFR speaker, poweramp, cheamp amp effect return, etc. The Axe-FX is expensive by most people's standards so I understand wanting to save money. But running the Axe-FX through a low-end amplification/speaker system is just not going to be effective. It's like watching a Bluray disc on a 17" Zenith tube television.
 

mortega76

Fractal Fanatic
hippietim said:
Back to the OP. Lose that QSC GX5. That's not a very good power amp. We had one of those for a while for a practice PA power amp - a Behringer 2500 blew it away (note that I am not advocating for the Behringer either). QSC makes a number of good power amps - the GX series just isn't in that list. We use the QSC PLX poweramps for mains and monitors now and they are very nice sounding. My Axe-FX runs direct and it sounds so much better with the PLX than when we rehearsed with the GX.

BTW, what speakers were you using?

Not to take a shot at the OP or anyone else, but I see this sort of rig put together all the time. Folks spend a bunch of money on an Axe-FX or the Eleven and then get the cheapest amplification system they can whether it's a cheap FRFR speaker, poweramp, cheamp amp effect return, etc. The Axe-FX is expensive by most people's standards so I understand wanting to save money. But running the Axe-FX through a low-end amplification/speaker system is just not going to be effective. It's like watching a Bluray disc on a 17" Zenith tube television.
Hey there Tim, thanks for chiming in... on Tuesday I went out and bought a Peavey PV-1500 which (after doing some research) is one of the more affordable Class AB Solid State power amps... I used it during practice on Tuesday and the sound was immediately "less harsh"... I then A/B it with the QSC GX5 and the GX5 was more up front but definitely more harsh sounding. I went ahead and confirmed my settings on Recto Orange, drive was set to 5.65, bass, mid, treble set to the default 5.00, all other settings (including prescense) were set to default... and the master was set to 7.45. Via the Marshall 1960 cab (a bright sounding cab) it sounded very meaty but definitely not like crap. I proceeded to use the suggested settings of 2.50-3.00 on the master but then I had to crank the amp level to 12.00 to get it to sound as loud as the previous settings. It did sound smoother. The PV-1500 is much heavier than the QSC GX5 and it had the Speakon connections which I had to get adapters for... I've already switched out the power amps so I'm sticking with the PV-1500 for now, but I'm really GAS'ing for the Fryette 2/90/2. Maybe next time Matt wants to get together I can A/B it against his 2/90/2 (with power amp sims off).

Thanks again to everyone for your helpful advice. :D

P.S. Our percussionist/guitars is now using the Carvin TS100 and it has definitely made his "rig" (Line 6 X3 Live) sound waaaaaay better than before.
 

SynFactory

Inspired
Somebody else already stated it...
The Master on the Amp is not the "Volume" of the entire rig.
The master at 12!!!!
Sure it sucks!
On the last effect block in your patch, use the "level" knob from there to raise the overall volume if you need it.
But be aware to not clip elsewhere in the chain.
However at what volume do you guys plays? 180 db?
 

mortega76

Fractal Fanatic
SynFactory said:
Somebody else already stated it...
The Master on the Amp is not the "Volume" of the entire rig.
The master at 12!!!!
Sure it sucks!
On the last effect block in your patch, use the "level" knob from there to raise the overall volume if you need it.
But be aware to not clip elsewhere in the chain.
However at what volume do you guys plays? 180 db?
:lol: :lol: :lol: Probably closer to 200db!!!

I sat behind our drummers set and realized just how loud it sounded with only our bass player and guitarist's POD X3/Carvin B52 cab... and my setup with only one Marshall cab, maxed PV1500, and Axe-fx at about 9 o'clock and I'm already just as loud as they are... once I turn on my other cab and turn my setup to 12 o'clock on the output it's sounding soooooo much massive goodness... and I'm drowning everyone including our loud drummer... As I said, I hit pretty hard on the drums and I could barely even hear the kick drum over the guitar and bass.

This past Sunday we had a gig and on stage the sound guy had me at about 8 o'clock... and I couldn't even hear myself on stage... crazy these sound guys.
 

WG6

Member
Just read through the whole thread, I agree with Cliff that the Master Volume is the culprit there and this falls in line with the others who mentioned adequate knowledge of different tube amps and how they work is pretty important.

One thing does not add up to me though, you mentioned harshness with your setup as something you were trying to tame, but mentioned that the Axe sounded muddy in comparison to the real deal amps you were playing. This seems conflicting to me. The other thing was your comment about the Axe power amp sims not being up to par with the Mako Power amp. Since you admitted that you have no experience with tube amps I don't think that is a very fair statement at all, not a dig or anything its just that there are way too many variables with what you heard that day to make such a statement. Glad the Axe is working more for you now though!
 

mortega76

Fractal Fanatic
Thanks for chiming in WG6...

At Matt's house... we couldn't get (this of course could definitely be a user head space error) the Axe-fx (and QSC GX5 or ART SLA2) to sound anywhere near as "good" as the Mako Mak4 Durado channel into the Fryette 2/90/2 going into the same two Mills 4x12 cabinets that we tested with the Axe-fx... that combination killed, the Ubershall (which admittedly I didn't tweak, just used the settings that Matt had), the Herbert (I did tweak but couldn't get it even in the same ballpark... too dark and too much "mud" in the gain... even at low gain levels) and even the ENGL SE (?)... which was much closer than all of them but still lacked a lot (to our ears) of da br00tlz.

But now that I have my matching JCM 900 1960A 4x12 cab to go with my 1960B cab powered by my PV1500... I have all kinds of br00tlz goodness... much more clarity... I would still like to have the Dorado in the Axe-fx. That pre-amp was killer!!!
 

WG6

Member
mortega76 said:
Thanks for chiming in WG6...

At Matt's house... we couldn't get (this of course could definitely be a user head space error) the Axe-fx (and QSC GX5 or ART SLA2) to sound anywhere near as "good" as the Mako Mak4 Durado channel into the Fryette 2/90/2 going into the same two Mills 4x12 cabinets that we tested with the Axe-fx... that combination killed, the Ubershall (which admittedly I didn't tweak, just used the settings that Matt had), the Herbert (I did tweak but couldn't get it even in the same ballpark... too dark and too much "mud" in the gain... even at low gain levels) and even the ENGL SE (?)... which was much closer than all of them but still lacked a lot (to our ears) of da br00tlz.

But now that I have my matching JCM 900 1960A 4x12 cab to go with my 1960B cab powered by my PV1500... I have all kinds of br00tlz goodness... much more clarity... I would still like to have the Dorado in the Axe-fx. That pre-amp was killer!!!
It certainly sounds like it! I'm curious as to where you had the master volume set on the high gain models that you tried. I believe all of the models you mentioned are ones that would benefit from and ultimately work best with lower master volume settings. If you had the master as high as you did with the Recto (7.5) then that would definitely explain the rounded off top end and lack of "sparkle" that you mentioned. Other power amp parameters could definitely be tweaked, including depth and dampening that would make a huge difference.
 
Top Bottom