Axe-Fx III Firmware Release Version 19.00

[FractalAudio]

Sorry if this is a stupid question but I have to ask as someone who's tried but still hears 0 difference changing tube types (except for 300B). So if tube type changes require associated "under the hood" (not exposed to users) parameter changes to make an audible change in sound, what is the usefulness of the tube type parameter for end users?

There are parameters not exposed to the user that are changed. Hardness is a relative parameter. Specifically it's a multiplier on the tube's kvb. I.e., if the tube has a kvb of, say, 20, and you turn hardness to 10 the actual kvb becomes 5 (lower kvb equals "harder" response).

 

[Frodebro]

I'm a little confused by the additional tube types. I thought that in the AxeFx, changing tube type doesn't change the sound. And to simulate changing tubes in real life, you adjust other parameters. Is not the case afterall?

If it didn't change the should then why are there different types?

I can run EL34s, 6V6s, or 6L6s in my Triple Crown. There are definitely differences between the three types, though they tend to be a bit more subtle at lower volume levels.

 

[DLC86]

I've just spent half an hour comparing tubes of the same type but different brands on my AC20 preset, and the difference, even though very subtle, is there.
For example Mullard el34 and el84 seem to have a softer clipping than JJs and have more "depth" on the low end which results slightly cleaner and almost like there's an octaver effect mixed in very low. I like it!

 

[dieter]

Thx

 

[FractalAudio]

If you want to hear the difference the tube types make choose a Class-A amp like the AC20 12AX7. Adjust to edge-of-breakup. Copy that channel to an adjacent channel. Now in the first channel set the power tube type to EL84/6BQ5. In the second channel set it to EL84 JJ. Switch back and forth between the channels and you should clearly hear the difference.

 

[FractalAudio]

I've just spent half an hour comparing tubes of the same type but different brands on my AC20 preset, and the difference, even though very subtle, is there.
For example Mullard el34 and el84 seem to have a softer clipping than JJs and have more "depth" on the low end which results slightly cleaner and almost like there's an octaver effect mixed in very low. I like it!

Good ears. The kvb of the JJ is significantly lower than the other EL84s which results in harder clipping.

 

[jin1995x]

I

Recordings and a/b test destroys a lot of rabbit holes and beliefs . How many time I ve heard “no I prefer maple neck, more bright “ blabla . The day you will recognize à maple neck or a rosewood in a recording . Same for pickups , there is a video where one guy demos maybe 10 different humbuckers and the difference is so light … same with 10 heads in the same cab. You have more difference in sound with 1 head with 10 cabs … some guys spend a fortune in tubes but if really they record their sound after the tube change and got the same difference than in the axe, imagine the désillusion . Better buying tablatures and strings guys

Idk about you but to me difference between switching from an el34 or a 6l6Gc to a kt88 for example is very easily noticeable .
Definitely not delusion.
You feel a relative change, even if you don’t remember how to identify in a mix or a/b .

Its like going from fortin meshuggah/marshall (el34) for crushing distortion to evh 5153 /archon (6l6) to to bogner uberschall.

Surely the circuitry on above amps differs and changes the sound but these tubes add their feel and the signature sound of many iconic amps is partly due to the tubes as well

i find 6l6’s more juicy while el34’s sound more warm and hot /aggressive

as far as pickups are concerned 10 similar sounding pickups will sound the same.

But go from a bkp aftermath to dimarzio d’activator to emg to illuminators.
The sound is indeed different as each of them have very different voicing.

And as a player you feel it , even if sometimes the changes are subtle
Is why so many rabbit holes exist imo

everybody understands distortion at s different level. To an average non musician listener Ofcourse everything distorted will sound absolutely same.

 

[DLC86]

Good ears. The kvb of the JJ is significantly lower than the other EL84s which results in harder clipping.

Glad my ears still work decently after all the high-SPL music I've listened to

 

[FractalAudio]

I

Idk about you but to me difference between switching from an el34 or a 6l6Gc to a kt88 for example is very easily noticeable .
Definitely not delusion.
You feel a relative change, even if you don’t remember how to identify in a mix or a/b .

Its like going from fortin meshuggah/marshall (el34) for crushing distortion to evh 5153 /archon (6l6) to to bogner uberschall.

Surely the circuitry on above amps differs and changes the sound but these tubes add their feel and the signature sound of many iconic amps is partly due to the tubes as well

i find 6l6’s more juicy while el34’s sound more warm and hot for the crushing distortion.

as far as pickups are concerned 10 similar sounding pickups will sound the same.

But go from a bkp aftermath to dimarzio d’activator to emg to illuminators.
The sound is indeed different as each of them have very different voicing.

And as a player you feel it , even if sometimes the changes are subtle
Is why so many rabbit holes exist imo

everybody understands distortion at s different level. To an average non musician listener Ofcourse everything distorted will sound absolutely same.

Also depends on how hard the power amp is being driven. If the power amp isn't being driven into clipping then the type of tube doesn't make much difference.

The key to a high-gain amp is getting the right blend of preamp and power amp distortion. Start with the MV low and dial in your tone. Then raise the MV until the headroom meter just starts to hit 0 dB. This is beginning of the "sweet spot". Experiment with higher/lower MV until you get the right blend of distortion and compression. Back off the preamp gain as necessary.

Vintage amps got almost all their distortion from the power amp. Over the years designers added gain to the preamp. Modern amps get most of their distortion from the preamp but without a little power amp distortion things can sound flat and compressed. Preamp distortion isn't lively like power amp distortion.

 

[jin1995x]

Also depends on how hard the power amp is being driven. If the power amp isn't being driven into clipping then the type of tube doesn't make much difference.

The key to a high-gain amp is getting the right blend of preamp and power amp distortion. Start with the MV low and dial in your tone. Then raise the MV until the headroom meter just starts to hit 0 dB. This is beginning of the "sweet spot". Experiment with higher/lower MV until you get the right blend of distortion and compression. Back off the preamp gain as necessary.

Vintage amps got almost all their distortion from the power amp. Over the years designers added gain to the preamp. Modern amps get most of their distortion from the preamp but without a little power amp distortion things can sound flat and compressed. Preamp distortion isn't lively like power amp distortion.

Thanks for the writeup,will explore this more!

 

[Dave Merrill]

I tried with an active , passive lp and strat . no but the thing can comes from I dont know what . As Mr fender said , maybe the new modelling add whatever more gain, compression or I dont know . I dont use compressors .
thank you fractal for the test and your time . I just have turned up the treshold, that's nothing .

What exactly do you mean by "noise"?
Hiss?
Hum?
Buzz?

I assume you mean hiss, since the others aren't at all likely to increase internally to the unit when the modeling changes. Is that right?

Hard to square this with Cliff's measurements.

 

[kit dunborg]

Also depends on how hard the power amp is being driven. If the power amp isn't being driven into clipping then the type of tube doesn't make much difference.

The key to a high-gain amp is getting the right blend of preamp and power amp distortion. Start with the MV low and dial in your tone. Then raise the MV until the headroom meter just starts to hit 0 dB. This is beginning of the "sweet spot". Experiment with higher/lower MV until you get the right blend of distortion and compression. Back off the preamp gain as necessary.

Vintage amps got almost all their distortion from the power amp. Over the years designers added gain to the preamp. Modern amps get most of their distortion from the preamp but without a little power amp distortion things can sound flat and compressed. Preamp distortion isn't lively like power amp distortion.

That's good advice, maybe worth to be in the wiki?
Also, with the Jose mod it's difficult to get the PA close to 0 db because of the volume drop, is this the reason for the "ideal" setting for the saturation switch?

 

[Smittefar]

In the Plexi 50W 6CA7, the tubes default* to 6CA7 JJ - I prefer the other type 6CA7 AMP - I suppose these are the tubes that is actually in Cliff's amp? The difference is subtle, but I believe I hear something.

* = those were selected in my existing preset.

 

[My name is mud]

I

Idk about you but to me difference between switching from an el34 or a 6l6Gc to a kt88 for example is very easily noticeable .
Definitely not delusion.
You feel a relative change, even if you don’t remember how to identify in a mix or a/b .

Its like going from fortin meshuggah/marshall (el34) for crushing distortion to evh 5153 /archon (6l6) to to bogner uberschall.

Surely the circuitry on above amps differs and changes the sound but these tubes add their feel and the signature sound of many iconic amps is partly due to the tubes as well

i find 6l6’s more juicy while el34’s sound more warm and hot /aggressive

as far as pickups are concerned 10 similar sounding pickups will sound the same.

But go from a bkp aftermath to dimarzio d’activator to emg to illuminators.
The sound is indeed different as each of them have very different voicing.

And as a player you feel it , even if sometimes the changes are subtle
Is why so many rabbit holes exist imo

everybody understands distortion at s different level. To an average non musician listener Ofcourse everything distorted will sound absolutely same.

I was more talking about the difference between 4 different 6L6 or 4 different EL34 ( brands so) .

Concerning pickups, The more you have gain, specially in metal music, the more the difference is small . they are plenty of A/b and comparative video between fluence and emg , di marzio and bkp etc and the difference is … You hear differences in clean tone and mid gain, but for metal

Same for high gain heads . When everything is turned to 12 with an overdrive as boost, in the same cab, you ll be surprised how close the heads are in the end .

That’s why cliff speaks about the Morgan, when you really want to see differences in tones, it’s in clean or “light dist tone” that act . In butcher mode , with a preset with the gain at 12 “everything sound the same” .
I agree with the feel thing by the way . But the result in the recording …

even more in an axe fx, where your preset can be ultra gainy and silent at the same time , you won’t know if I am using a 300 or a 5000 guitar in a recording. This, is the pleasure of the player

 

[My name is mud]

And the time I wrote my thing, cliff said the same just before . (About the amount of gain)
When I change the tubes in the axe in my metal presets , I can’t tell a difference except 3/4 that are “particular” . But between the el34 model family or 6l6, outch .

@Dave Merrill lets say … guitar ground buzzes like I had in all the amps in my life with whatever guitars if I don’t have a gate .( because of the amount of gain used)

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

I love it! New Power tube choices like Svetlana EL34s!! Mullard EL34s! Tung Sols! What fun!

NOS Tung Sols or Russky Tung Sols?

 

[rossipedia]

You hear differences in clean tone and mid gain, but for metal

Idunno, maybe it's just me having been playing super hi-gain tones for almost 30 years now but I can easily tell a difference between EMGs and Fluences and Duncans and BKPs through a 5150 at 7 o-clock pre-gain. But even a/b audio comparisons only take you so far.

But at those gain settings the differences between pickups is more like the differences between power tubes for softer sounds, it's more about the feel while playing than the final sound. There's something about the interplay between the pick, strings, and sound that gets lost when you record a guitar. Two tones can sound identical when recorded and have drastically different feels when played.

 

[Gregmang]

What exactly do you mean by "noise"?
Hiss?
Hum?
Buzz?

I assume you mean hiss, since the others aren't at all likely to increase internally to the unit when the modeling changes. Is that right?

Hard to square this with Cliff's measurements.

For me it was the inherent noise you get when you completely turn off the gate.

But not nearly as bad and quickly rectified by tweaking the gate.

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

The key to a high-gain amp is getting the right blend of preamp and power amp distortion. Start with the MV low and dial in your tone. Then raise the MV until the headroom meter just starts to hit 0 dB. This is beginning of the "sweet spot". Experiment with higher/lower MV until you get the right blend of distortion and compression. Back off the preamp gain as necessary.

This was the basis of my wish for the poweramp headroom meter to extend above 0dB, so sweet spot could be roughed in more quickly, and so insight into just how hard you're rawdogging the outputs, in case you wanted to fix it or maybe replicate it elsewhere a bit more quickly/easily. Kinda the same reason car speedometers go beyond 85 mph. Sometimes that is useful info (not that I ever speed, but if I did , y'knowwhatimean)....

 

[FractalAudio]

This was the basis of my wish for the poweramp headroom meter to extend above 0dB, so sweet spot could be roughed in more quickly, and so insight into just how hard you're rawdogging the outputs, in case you wanted to fix it or maybe replicate it elsewhere a bit more quickly/easily. Kinda the same reason car speedometers go beyond 85 mph. Sometimes that is useful info (not that I ever speed, but if I did , y'knowwhatimean)....

It can't go above 0 dB. The headroom meter is how close the plate voltage is to ground. It can't ever be below ground so 0 dB is the maximum.