Axe Fx III and Tube Amp head with 4x12 Cab

dharq

dharq

Inspired
Considering a Axe Fx III to use with Tube Amp head with 4x12 Cab, does anyone have experience with set up - is this ok for the Axe FX or the Tube amp will it harm either.

vs buying a PowerAmp to run with a Cab ..
vs buying FRFR Speakers to run with Axe FX ..

can someone tell me the advantages vs dis-advantages
some words of wisdom :)

Thanks in advance
 
You would be limited to 1 cab tone of your physical cab (which is 1/2 of the rig tone)
You would be limited to 1 type of power amp type. Your tube amp head, even if you plug the AXE III into the Effects Return of your tube head, bypassing the pre-amp, will still color the tone.

I tried that, but quickly went FRFR, since I didn't want to have to dial in 2 kinds of presets - one for recording/direct to PA, and one with a tube power amp and cab. For many years, I used my Matrix SS power amp and 2 Matrix CFR12 FRFR wedges pointing directly back at me, but since February, we have gone IEM for monitors, and that was an easy transition.
 
rushfan said:
You would be limited to 1 cab tone of your physical cab (which is 1/2 of the rig tone)
You would be limited to 1 type of power amp type. Your tube amp head, even if you plug the AXE III into the Effects Return of your tube head, bypassing the pre-amp, will still color the tone.

I tried that, but quickly went FRFR, since I didn't want to have to dial in 2 kinds of presets - one for recording/direct to PA, and one with a tube power amp and cab. For many years, I used my Matrix SS power amp and 2 Matrix CFR12 FRFR wedges pointing directly back at me, but since February, we have gone IEM for monitors, and that was an easy transition.
Click to expand...
I have done tube tone for years and 4x12 cabs I was worried I would not have enough volume to play with a loud drummer or have the color I wanted out of the tone .. realized there is no need for breakup its digital
 
dharq said:
Considering a Axe Fx III to use with Tube Amp head with 4x12 Cab, does anyone have experience with set up - is this ok for the Axe FX or the Tube amp will it harm either.
Click to expand...

Look at page 27 of the manual, it shows the 4CM method of connecting the AxeFx with a real Amp/Cab. This effectively turns the AxeFx into an 'effects' unit since you wouldn't be using its Amp/Cab modeling.
As stated above, this method means losing the choice of using a huge palette of different sounds the AxeFx has to offer.

dharq said:
vs buying a PowerAmp to run with a Cab ..
vs buying FRFR Speakers to run with Axe FX ..

can someone tell me the advantages vs dis-advantages
some words of wisdom :)

Thanks in advance
Click to expand...

It doesn't have to be, an either or choice.
You can run the AxeFx with both a real Amp/Cab and FRFR or with real Amp/Cab & power Amp/Cab. This requires custom presets to keep the AxeFx output signals apart so that modelled Amp/Cab tones aren't going into the real Amp signal chain.

Advantage: Able to blend AxeFx wide tonal capabilities with your existing tone

Disadvantage: More effort required to dial in blending characteristics, and of course more gear to lug around to gigs.
 
Last edited:
With a loadbox, you can use your amp and your axe simultaneously or only one of them in FRFR mode.
 
Last edited:
I have used my Axe FX III in 4CM with my MESA TC-50 head and 2x12. Did not sound good - terrible hissing noise even after experimenting with the input padding and noise gate (not sure why). Works much better in so-called Post-FX mode (3CM, I guess) , but you are limited to post pre-amp time-based FX in the effects loop (which is fine for me). Have used this quite a lot as I needed a real cabinet on stage and did not want to buy another power amp. Pretty cool actually as I can use the AXE to switch the amp channels.
 
I've been using my FM3 for a few weeks now straight into the effects return of a Marshall Origin 50 Head - so 2CM I guess. I have a SV212 or a 1960TV 4x12 depending on how strong I'm feeling that night :)

The Origin has fairly high clean headroom on the 50W mode, so I am just using it as a resasonably transparent valve power amp. The kind of places we play I don't have to push the master far at all so I'm not getting any power amp breakup which would mess things up.

It sounds absolutely great - best sound I've had from a modeller. I love the feel of it under the fingers, and having a cab pushing air. I guess the Origin does colour the sound somehow, but it's in a way I like.

If I played a really big place, I would use out 2 to feed the desk with a cab block to keep my on stage just for monitoring.
 
Simon Godden said:
I've been using my FM3 for a few weeks now straight into the effects return of a Marshall Origin 50 Head - so 2CM I guess. I have a SV212 or a 1960TV 4x12 depending on how strong I'm feeling that night :)

The Origin has fairly high clean headroom on the 50W mode, so I am just using it as a resasonably transparent valve power amp. The kind of places we play I don't have to push the master far at all so I'm not getting any power amp breakup which would mess things up.

It sounds absolutely great - best sound I've had from a modeller. I love the feel of it under the fingers, and having a cab pushing air. I guess the Origin does colour the sound somehow, but it's in a way I like.

If I played a really big place, I would use out 2 to feed the desk with a cab block to keep my on stage just for monitoring.
Click to expand...
Curious if your still using this method? I its a year old thread, but I am considering traditional mesa amp/cab on stage with axe into efx return the using output 2 to FOH with cab sims on. I guess I can do this? Sounds like the way to keep using my frfr at home which I dig but in a band setting it's not ideal.for my ears. Any help is appreciated. Thanks
 
316ms said:
Curious if your still using this method? I its a year old thread, but I am considering traditional mesa amp/cab on stage with axe into efx return the using output 2 to FOH with cab sims on. I guess I can do this? Sounds like the way to keep using my frfr at home which I dig but in a band setting it's not ideal.for my ears. Any help is appreciated. Thanks
Click to expand...
I don't still use this method. But only due to simplicity. I've been using Austin Buddy's Live Gold presets, along with my Matrix FR12. Those presets are so great and sound so good through the Matrix, and it is such a simple setup and means I don't need routing paths that are different for Out1 and Out2. I just have Out2 copy Out1 if separate feed needed for FOH.

FYI I am now a FM3 user rather than FXIII.
 
Simon Godden said:
I don't still use this method. But only due to simplicity. I've been using Austin Buddy's Live Gold presets, along with my Matrix FR12. Those presets are so great and sound so good through the Matrix, and it is such a simple setup and means I don't need routing paths that are different for Out1 and Out2. I just have Out2 copy Out1 if separate feed needed for FOH.

FYI I am now a FM3 user rather than FXIII.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the reply. I've considered AB for drop and play. Would you think I could have success with one of his patches with a Friedman asc-12 for 80s,90s cover band. Maybe not a fair question. I do not doubt the quality of his packs. I'm just coming up empty with frfr. It sounds great! It's just not standing up to a half stack. As mentioned It's loud enough , just not cutting.
 
316ms said:
Thank you for the reply. I've considered AB for drop and play. Would you think I could have success with one of his patches with a Friedman asc-12 for 80s,90s cover band. Maybe not a fair question. I do not doubt the quality of his packs. I'm just coming up empty with frfr. It sounds great! It's just not standing up to a half stack. As mentioned It's loud enough , just not cutting.
Click to expand...

Have you dialed in your presets at volume?
 
Budda said:
Have you dialed in your presets at volume?
Click to expand...
Sure have. I find this theory interesting. Playing thru frfr is a flat pa type speaker yes. So to dial it in at volume would mean to dial it in with other instruments playing simultaneously.. tough feat IMO. Should be able to dial in a tone and adjust the volume. If you know what squashes tone, which I have a decent concept of.. not to much distortion or bass , compression or scoped mids or effects. Playing thru frfr is great with backing tracks or IEM.
Dialing in a preset at gig volume. great concept, however, every room is different and the acoustics, every frequency is different in every room somewhat. The amount of people is not predetermined at my level. So dialing in a pre set at gig volume is not a reality for me. I am not in a position to create a preset at sound check. Adjusting before hand and hoping its correct.... na, I'll pass. Thanks for the mention and I have seen that multiple times as abeing beneficial when using frfr, to dial in presets at gig volume, honestly I am just not convinced I want to use frfr in a band setting , my results are just not convincing for me. Everyone in the room says it sounds awsome, I just feel its buried and sounds scooped no matter what. I can make the mids harsh and definitely jumps out more like it would with any rig with harsh mids. After using a BE100 live for 5 + years it's tough to find that sound, I always felt the highs with the BE could get piercing if not careful. Maybe I can get the frfr to work for me , definitely a work in progress, and it is so much fun in solitude without question. Regards
 
Last edited:
316ms said:
Sure have. I find this theory interesting. Playing thru frfr is a flat pa type speaker yes. So to dial it in at volume would mean to dial it in with other instruments playing simultaneously.. tough feat IMO. Should be able to dial in a tone and adjust the volume. If you know what squashes tone, which I have a decent concept of.. not to much distortion or bass , compression or scoped mids or effects. Playing thru frfr is great with backing tracks or IEM.
Dialing in a preset at gig volume. great concept, however, every room is different and the acoustics, every frequency is different in every room somewhat. The amount of people is not predetermined at my level. So dialing in a pre set at gig volume is not a reality for me. I am not in a position to create a preset at sound check. Adjusting before hand and hoping its correct.... na, I'll pass. Thanks for the mention
Click to expand...
Seriously, no. It has nothing to do with other instruments playing simultaneously. It has to do with the Fletcher-Munson effect, which is that stuff just sounds very different at 90dB compared with 40dB. The fact that FRFR is a flat PA speaker is irrelevant, because a sounds you dial in at low volume will sounds very very different at high volume. This is the biggest lesson I never learned over 35 years of playing, and has led to my general dissatisfaction with tone.

It's really annoying, because if you don't have the option to dial in at high volume, there is no real way around it. I tried to design EQ curves to compensate, but it doesn't work.

So for me, using the AB Live Gold presets was a game changer, because there is a guy who has the industry experience, and the ears, and the right space at home, to dial in those patches at high volume. It's the best money I ever spent.

If I've learned one thing over many years, it is that dialing in presets at low volume, and expecting them to sound the same or better at high volume, is never going to happen. Annoying, but true.
 
Simon Godden said:
Seriously, no. It has nothing to do with other instruments playing simultaneously. It has to do with the Fletcher-Munson effect, which is that stuff just sounds very different at 90dB compared with 40dB. The fact that FRFR is a flat PA speaker is irrelevant, because a sounds you dial in at low volume will sounds very very different at high volume. This is the biggest lesson I never learned over 35 years of playing, and has led to my general dissatisfaction with tone.

It's really annoying, because if you don't have the option to dial in at high volume, there is no real way around it. I tried to design EQ curves to compensate, but it doesn't work.

So for me, using the AB Live Gold presets was a game changer, because there is a guy who has the industry experience, and the ears, and the right space at home, to dial in those patches at high volume. It's the best money I ever spent.

If I've learned one thing over many years, it is that dialing in presets at low volume, and expecting them to sound the same or better at high volume, is never going to happen. Annoying, but true.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reply, I do have the option of dialing in at extremely loud volumes. It's not a volume issue. The fact that it is a pa speaker is irrelevant " interesting, it's the type speaker that's meant to have a band mixed in it , meaning drums keys, bass vocals etc.. so to dial in at gig volumes would be to guess those instruments volumes OR dial in while playing with those instruments. Just turning it up.louder does not represent playing in a mix. I can crank the piss out of it no problem at my house. However I do not have a snare or kick drum banging while I am dialing it in. So I have to disagree, the concept.isnt making sense to me. In short, any tube amp I've played gets loud enough to be heard and jump out with ease with the turn of a master volume unless its saturated in gain or compression or effects. It also gets punchier as well as.louder, can't say that happens with dialing in a frfr. I will try the Austin B live pack and be optimistic. I have nothing to lose at this point. The axe3 is remarkable in many ways. The frfr just has not impressed me outside of providing great FOH , along with subs and a great mix. It's fun, it's not the same next to a kit. Seems redundant, trying to mix my tone to a concept of a mixed sound that does not have the other parts of the mix in the sound. Thanks for the help, Regards
 
Settings for any guitar amp dialled in at "home volume" generally wont translate well to "band/gig volume" no matter if its tube, ss or digital.

Schedule a band practice for dialling in your rig.
 
316ms said:
Thanks for the reply, I do have the option of dialing in at extremely loud volumes. It's not a volume issue. The fact that it is a pa speaker is irrelevant " interesting, it's the type speaker that's meant to have a band mixed in it , meaning drums keys, bass vocals etc.. so to dial in at gig volumes would be to guess those instruments volumes OR dial in while playing with those instruments. Just turning it up.louder does not represent playing in a mix. I can crank the piss out of it no problem at my house. However I do not have a snare or kick drum banging while I am dialing it in. So I have to disagree, the concept.isnt making sense to me. In short, any tube amp I've played gets loud enough to be heard and jump out with ease with the turn of a master volume unless its saturated in gain or compression or effects. It also gets punchier as well as.louder, can't say that happens with dialing in a frfr. I will try the Austin B live pack and be optimistic. I have nothing to lose at this point. The axe3 is remarkable in many ways. The frfr just has not impressed me outside of providing great FOH , along with subs and a great mix. It's fun, it's not the same next to a kit. Seems redundant, trying to mix my tone to a concept of a mixed sound that does not have the other parts of the mix in the sound. Thanks for the help, Regards
Click to expand...
Sorry, just finding your responses weird. An FRFR is not "the type of speaker that's meant to have a band mixed in it". Whatever you play, when you're in a band, there will be a band mixed in to your sound. All an FRFR is, is the sound of an amp through a mic'd up speaker cabinet.

You don't want to guess what other instruments will sound like in the mix? Ummm ok, but again whatever you play, other instruments will be in the sound unless you're playing solo.

You seem used to valve amps - that's cool, stick with it.

Sorry, but denying that volume has an effect on a sound is scientifically wrong. You prefer valve, that's cool.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom