Axe FX II + Tube Amp help?

O

omgpacifist

Member
Hey all! I apologize in advance if this is in the wrong place. I've had my Axe FX II for a while (I control it with a Behringer midi footswitch). Anywho, I just purchased an Orange Rockerverb 100 MKII head and an Orange 2x12 closed back cab. I now wish to combine the best of analog and the best of digital. If I understand correctly, I can run the Axe FX with the Orange in two ways.
1. Purely effects. 2. As a preamp that will give the head different voicings. At this point, I have a couple of questions.

1. How do I do either of these things?

2. What are the pros/cons of each?

Thanks guys!
 
1. I believe you may be referring to the 4 cable method. Please see p. 21 of the Axe FX manual. You are strongly advised to use "humbuster" cables for these connections (they're very easy to make yourself from TRS cables). I do it this way & you can See my setup at Friedman BE100 + Axe FX II = 4 cable method - YouTube
Pros = you still get 100% authentic tube overdrive from your amp + awesome effects in front (eg: overdrive, eq) plus amazing post-effects (eg: reverbs, delays). Your amp + your cab = your sound
Cons - you are limited to your amp sounds. In other words, Your amp + your cab = your sound. You wont be able to dial in a '59 Fender Twin & then switch to Diezel Herbert sort of sound.

2. Simply run the Axe FX into the effects return of your head. Please see p.19 of the Axe FX manual. Make sure you have disabled all cabs & power amps in the global settings, as you now have a cab & power amp as part of your setup. Simples!
Pro - you get the tube power amp section working to add some tube "warmness" & your cab will also add your sound to the tone. You get to use all the available tonal capabilities of the Axe FX. You CAN dial in a '59 Fender Twin & then switch to Diezel Herbert sound
Cons - Too much is sometimes simply too much. Do you need access to 512 different amps & effects? The amp head & cab will still "colour your sound" - do you want this to happen?

Hope this helps
 
So I have a question. If I run the second method, can I also just use the amplifier's original voice should I choose? Or am I limited (lol you know what I mean) to the voicings of the axe fx?


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You actually got 4 different options for hooking up the Axe and the Rockerverb.

1. Axe in front of Orange for pre-gain only effects. This is of pretty limited usefulness since any time based effects like delay and reverb would likely sound pretty terrible in front of a high gain preamp. Guitar > Axe input 1 > Axe output 1 > Orange input.

2. Axe in the loop of the Orange for post-gain only effects. This would sound great for effects like delay and reverb, but you wouldn't be able to use any Axe effects like wah or drives in front of the Orange. Not very good for using Axe amp models either since it's after the Orange preamp. Guitar > Orange Input > Orange FX Loop Send > Axe input 1 > Axe output 1 > Orange FX Loop Return.

3. Use Axe for all tones and effects and use the effects loop return of the Orange to feed just the power amp. This will let you use the Axe amps and effects to their fullest, but you would not be able to use the Orange preamp for distortion at all. Guitar > Axe Input 1 > Axe Output 1 > Orange FX Loop Return.

4. Axe both in front and in the loop of the Orange. Also known as the four cable method. Most versatile setup since you can put effects anywhere in the chain relative to the orange preamp and even bypass the Orange preamp and use just the Axe models for any given preset. Also the hardest to configure since you have to be careful about gain staging to get the levels both in front of the amp and in the loop of the amp right to avoid excess clipping or noise. More prone to possible ground loop issues as well. Guitar > Axe Input 1 > Axe Output 2 > Orange Input > Orange FX Loop Send > Axe Input 2 > Axe Ouput 1 > Orange FX Loop Return. Must have FX Loop Block inserted in the Axe preset to hear the Orange Preamp. Bypass or omit the FX loop block to bypass the Orange preamp and use an Axe Amp block instead.
 
As above - thanks Mr Fender.
1. pretty useless. Dont do it.
2. Steve Vai & John Pretrucci do this method
3. A few bands do this method - very popular & flexible
4. The 4 cable method = I do this.

You can choose to use the amplifier's original voice (ie; Orange head preamp into Orange head power amp) and/or Axe FX sounds (eg: Axe FX preamp into Orange head power amp) using the 4 cable method. Option 2 (Steve Vai = Axe in the loop) is OK but you wont use any wah or drives.
The 3rd method (Use Axe for all tones and effects and use the effects loop return of the Orange) limits you to only using Axe FX sounds - The Orange head becomes a power amp only & is not used as a preamp.

Hope that makes sense.
 
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I really like the idea of versatility. I want to be able to get an array of sounds with tube warmth. The 4CM seems to be my best option since I can use any sound I want including the original.

So what is gain staging? How would I go about making sure that my levels are set etc? Also, where can I purchase humbusters? Do they completely eliminate the hum?


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Humbusters are not worth purchasing - you can make them yourself. Buy 3 x TRS (stereo) 1/4 inch cables. On 1 end of each cable replace a TRS plug with a TS (mono) 1/4 inch guitar plug = done! The Axe FX manual shows you how to wire them up. They appear to keep everything quiet on my rig. Cable 4 is your normal guitar cable into the front of the Axe Fx

As for levels, I cant really advise as yet. I've only had my rig about 10 days but i do know the "secret" is in proper level settings. Once you insert an effects loop into the block, make sure all the levels are consistent when switching presets.
 
don't get caught up too much on "tube warmth." the axe emulates this without any guitar gear. it's all down to preference.

just be wary you don't go too far down the rabbit hole forcing the axe to sound "good" with that real amp and cab, when it may sound exactly how you want it to using PA type speakers instead. definitely try it.
 
You can also just rewire one of the TRS plugs into a mono configuration to avoid having to buy a separate mono plug. Just solder a small jumper wire between the ring and sleeve connectors on one of the plugs to make it mono. Just be sure to paint it or label it as the mono side since the stock stereo wired side has to go to the Axe for the Humbuster thing to work.
 
Thanks so much guys! You've all been super helpful. Just for the sake of recap,

Three humbusters are all I need. This gets setup via effects loop and front of amp? Right?


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Actually you only need 2 humbuster cables. Only the Axe 1/4" Output jacks have the humbuster feature. The rear input jacks are balanced inputs, so true stereo or TRS cables should be used if you are connecting to gear with balanced outputs. I doubt the FX loop send on your Orange is balanced, so a regular mono instrument cable would be cheaper. The user manual has good info on four cable method and level settings too. There's also a diagram in the back on how to wire up a humbuster cable from scratch.
 
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I use the 4cm with a bogner atma. Took awhile to configure, but I've got it running pretty good. Here's what I've learned.

1. I only use a humbuster cable between the output 1 and the return on my amp. If you use a humbuster cable from output 2 to the input amp, there will still be a little bit of hum. To completely eliminate the hum/ground loop, I use a high quality iso transformer with ordinary TS cables (lehle p split). I only use the iso out on the lehle. This breaks the ground connection and eliminates all hum.

2. use short cables

3. I set my output 2 level knob on the front maxed for unity gain, but use output level 1 as a master volume. That way I can just set the relative channel volumes on my bogner and leave them. Then if I need to turn up the whole amp, I use the output 1 level knob.

4. additional hiss cannot be avoided in the 4cm if you use a distortion channel on your tube amp. I wrestled with this a lot this summer and after much research, realized that its unavoidable. In the 4cm, the axe goes before your amp input. Putting any digital device before an amp's input introduces some noise. When your amp is on the distortion channel, this noise is amplified because of the gain. People who use clean sounds, or overdrive will not notice the introduced noise, but its noticeable on the higher gain sounds. Having said all this, the additional noise is not that bad. I did an experiment where I put a TC electronic Voicelive 3 (has an amp modeller) before my bogner amp's input on a distortion channel. The hiss introduced was brutal, and significantly worse than the axe. It was then that I really realized that the axe does introduce very little hiss when in front of a higher gain channel, and that it's unavoidable. Increasing the pad setting on output 2 helps reduce the hiss even further. With a noise gate on, it completely goes away.

5. Bypassing the real tube preamp in the 4cm, and using the amp models in the 4cm is great, but the tone is shaped quite a bit by your power amp and cab.

6. It'll take several hours to get your setup sounding right. Don't give up. The hum can be avoided, and the hiss minimized. An iso transformer is critical though!
 
Realistically, could I just clean up any additional hiss with a good noise gate setting?


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omgpacifist said:
Realistically, could I just clean up any additional hiss with a good noise gate setting?


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Click to expand...

yes, that's what I do. But don't beat yourself up about it existing when you bypass the gate . It's unavoidable. For a while, it bugged me because I thought that such an expensive unit shouldn't introduce noise when put before a high gain channel on a tube amp. Then I learned that was not possible, and that the axe has very low noise, compared to other digital devices.

The boost/pad setting on output 2 should be raised as high as it'll go without clipping. That'll reduce the hiss to it's lowest level. Then the gate removes the last little bit.
 
What axe model do you use, my friend? I know that the issue varies between models and amplifiers. I've read that even two of the same amp models can have vastly different results with the ground loop issue.


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omgpacifist said:
What axe model do you use, my friend? I know that the issue varies between models and amplifiers. I've read that even two of the same amp models can have vastly different results with the ground loop issue.


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Axe fx II XL version.

The hiss cannot be completely eliminated. I have 3 boutique amps, and they all do it on higher gain channels. Clean channels are silent. Cliff has acknowledged in the past that hiss is unavoidable for the reasons I've stated, although the XL version is the quietist I think.
 
omgpacifist said:
Hey all! I apologize in advance if this is in the wrong place. I've had my Axe FX II for a while (I control it with a Behringer midi footswitch). Anywho, I just purchased an Orange Rockerverb 100 MKII head and an Orange 2x12 closed back cab. I now wish to combine the best of analog and the best of digital. If I understand correctly, I can run the Axe FX with the Orange in two ways.
1. Purely effects. 2. As a preamp that will give the head different voicings. At this point, I have a couple of questions.

1. How do I do either of these things?

2. What are the pros/cons of each?


Thanks guys!
Click to expand...

I prefer,

Global power amp sims off. Speaker distortion minimum, transformer distortion minimum.

Set axe output to taste for power amp distortion.

In the advanced settings change the power amp filtering of the highs and lows to 20/20. Let the real power amp define the cutoffs.

Set presence and depth on the axe to neutral and use the real presence and depth on the poweramp.


Fx are now traditionally placed between preamp and poweramp fyi.
 
omgpacifist said:
Hey all! I apologize in advance if this is in the wrong place. I've had my Axe FX II for a while (I control it with a Behringer midi footswitch). Anywho, I just purchased an Orange Rockerverb 100 MKII head and an Orange 2x12 closed back cab. I now wish to combine the best of analog and the best of digital. If I understand correctly, I can run the Axe FX with the Orange in two ways.
1. Purely effects. 2. As a preamp that will give the head different voicings. At this point, I have a couple of questions.

1. How do I do either of these things?

2. What are the pros/cons of each?

Thanks guys!
Click to expand...

I solved this issue by using a Rene Martinez signal splitter to run to my Mesa Mark IV completely dry and to my Axe Fx II using different amp models with effects. I run the output of the Axe Fx to a line mixer and the mic'd silent sister ISO cab from the Mark IV head to the line mixer as well. This can then go out to my recording interface and/or my QSC KW122 speakers. The sound is huge and the best of both worlds. Very flexible.
 
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