Axe Fx II, It's not Hype (IMO)

@6L6C Thanks for thread, although it seems to have gone off the rails. Did you get a chance to preview the unit through headphones at all?

@FractalAudio I'm up for more demos tracks online. I can't wait to hear more!

I tried to get a response from him to just to see if the topic could be salvaged but I believe it's a lost cause at this point, just waiting for someone to lock it up and throw away the key :roll.
 
I've seen this stated several times in this thread, so far, and I think it needs to be clarified: he is not entitled to his opinion, he is only entitled to his informed opinion, at least if he is going to air it publicly. If his opinion, no matter how earnestly held, comes from a place of ignorance, then the viewing public is under no obligation to take it seriously or leave it unscrutinized.

And that is, I believe, the problem here: his opinion was not arrived at through adequate interaction with the device. I can find no indication, from his own description, that he is qualified to arrive at any meaningful opinion whatsoever. Why should we take him seriously, then? To denounce the product as "disappointing" (among other worthlessly vague and subjective adjectives) from such a limited demonstration is absurd, and IMO rightly deserves the skepticism and disregard it received.

As Mark Hughes once said: The Internet is a wonderful, fabulous place for the public discussion and debate of ideas - even with all of its problems, it is still the best communications medium humanity has ever invented. It is not a kind and gentle fairyland where everyone's ideas are supported and nurtured and allowed to pass, no matter how bizarre, because they represent the special uniqueness of each individual.

Trolls, however intentioned, need not be tolerated. Uninformed opinions, proudly (and ignorantly) delivered on public forums, are the lifeblood of trollish communication, and should be stamped out wherever they appear. It is a public duty! ;)

Wait a minute - Did you just propose to "Stamp" almost the entirety of the AxeII subforum - it's composed mostly of users "airing their opinions" on the virtues of AxeII after having only listened to clips, thereby being much less "informed" about the unit than the guy who actually got to experience it and maybe witnessed others interacting with the unit?
 
I've seen this stated several times in this thread, so far, and I think it needs to be clarified: he is not entitled to his opinion, he is only entitled to his informed opinion, at least if he is going to air it publicly. If his opinion, no matter how earnestly held, comes from a place of ignorance, then the viewing public is under no obligation to take it seriously or leave it unscrutinized.

And that is, I believe, the problem here: his opinion was not arrived at through adequate interaction with the device. I can find no indication, from his own description, that he is qualified to arrive at any meaningful opinion whatsoever. Why should we take him seriously, then? To denounce the product as "disappointing" (among other worthlessly vague and subjective adjectives) from such a limited demonstration is absurd, and IMO rightly deserves the skepticism and disregard it received.

As Mark Hughes once said: The Internet is a wonderful, fabulous place for the public discussion and debate of ideas - even with all of its problems, it is still the best communications medium humanity has ever invented. It is not a kind and gentle fairyland where everyone's ideas are supported and nurtured and allowed to pass, no matter how bizarre, because they represent the special uniqueness of each individual.

Trolls, however intentioned, need not be tolerated. Uninformed opinions, proudly (and ignorantly) delivered on public forums, are the lifeblood of trollish communication, and should be stamped out wherever they appear. It is a public duty! ;)

...just a direct question: can I have the phone number of your "supplier"? Whatever he sells, it must be REALLY good.....:shock
 
Geez, are you guys that "sensitive" that a guy can't say it sounded "thin and lifeless" without being called a "troll"? "Thin and lifeless" is a legitimate observation, though whether it was correctly derived is another story altogether?

The correct response would've been to explain to him that an amp show in a hotel is hardly the place to form opinions via critical listening, and to encourage him to get one for testing along with a reasonably decent player as a lot of tone is in the fingers! If after that response he had continued repeatedly to talk trash then the infamous "troll" post would've been appropriate.

Also, what's supposedly "understood and addressed/accepted by the vast majority of the participants here" has no bearing whatsoever unless the "vast majority of the participants here" are all pre-qualified as accomplished in both their playing/programming skills, and their testing methodology/testing environment/critical listening skills. It must be remembered that the number of people using the Axe is still way smaller than the number of people using various tube amps and other fx boxes etc, so there for if we do the math it's really not critically important to the "big picture" what is supposedly "understood and addressed/accepted by the vast majority of the participants here" on the Axe forum.

There's no reason this forum has to be dominated by trolls or fan boys. Heck, if the Axe 1 was perfect there would've been no need for the Axe 2, so constructive criticism is mission critical to the continued evolution of the species.

BTW, I'm not a troll, nor a fan boy, just a musician/audio engineering pro with roughly 25 years experience and reasonably successful credentials who's tired of the BS.

Agreed. Just as people using extreme language ("best ever" and "thin and lifeless") about the device are off the mark.

The first post by the individual in question had all the marks of a troll post. For one thing, he was apparently unaware that any issues of comparison to "the real thing" have been understood and addressed/accepted by the vast majority of the participants here. He also apparently did not realize that there is 15-day trial period. A little surfing of the site in advance of that post would have made matters clearer to him, and I suspect he would have trod a bit more lightly had he done so.
 
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As I pointed out already, I acknowledge there is a possibility, if not a high probability, that I was mistaken about the individual in question. Mark my words: if he ends up making a positive contribution to the user group, I'll publicly apologize to him and admit that I was mistaken.
 
Wait a minute - Did you just propose to "Stamp" almost the entirety of the AxeII subforum - it's composed mostly of users "airing their opinions" on the virtues of AxeII after having only listened to clips, thereby being much less "informed" about the unit than the guy who actually got to experience it and maybe witnessed others interacting with the unit?
No. But many have witnessed the current Axe-FX and the new one should be an improvement and is touted as such by respected members. So by extrapolation there is a point to be made if the original Axe's held their own against the Eventide that the new one should not be less.

Thank you and good night!
 
Agreed. Just as people using extreme language ("best ever" and "thin and lifeless") about the device are off the mark.

The first post by the individual in question had all the marks of a troll post. For one thing, he was apparently unaware that any issues of comparison to "the real thing" have been understood and addressed/accepted by the vast majority of the participants here. He also apparently did not realize that there is 15-day trial period. A little surfing of the site in advance of that post would have made matters clearer to him, and I suspect he would have trod a bit more lightly had he done so.
I'm not going to "join the fight" (even though I'm one of those who thinks the guy is entitled to his opinion, wasn't overly negative, and shouldn't have been bashed)...

But I have to react to this one about so-called extreme language. If extreme language was banned, just about everyone on this forum would be kicked out.

The following are actual quotes from the user comments resulting from a f/w release in the past (10.x). If these are not extreme (and non-measurable), I don't know what is... if these below are the norm (and admit it, they are!), then why can't a person who wasn't impressed use terms like "thin and lifeless"?

Everything's awesome
this update truly rocks
outstanding
superb
All models sound more awesome
Truly awesomeness has again been achieved
spooky how real it felt and sounded
this update IS something
Awesome tones
Sounds out of this world
beyond awesome IMHO
Just Wow!
Just amazing
Unbeliebubble (sic)
new models are simply awesome
everything i'd hoped for
all awesome
sound superb
Axe Fx is the GAS solution
makes it even harder (again) to stop playin and put my guitar down
am blown away each time
 
The following are actual quotes from the user comments resulting from a f/w release in the past (10.x).
Those are all completely over the top. If that much improvement were even possible, then all the prior firmware revisions would have to have been crap.

We've been seeing that kind of gushing - along with some complaints, to be sure - for every firmware release that has come out. It really is tiresome, and it really does present an unfavorable impression of Axe-Fx users to the outside world.

If these are not extreme (and non-measurable), I don't know what is...
They are both, and IMO they lack credibility for exactly that reason. You will not find a single instance of my using superlatives about firmware releases, because IMO they have not been justified.

if these below are the norm (and admit it, they are!), then why can't a person who wasn't impressed use terms like "thin and lifeless"?
He can, and he did. Unless a mod has removed them in the last minute or so, his comments are still there. IMO (still) he was trolling, but I have acknowledged several times that I may be mistaken.
 
I think you are all over thinking this.

It's not cool to be excited and share that about something that spins your propeller or floats your boat? Look, seriously, if you can't dig something and post that you dig something and be happy about it - using yes (gasp!) flowery over the top adjectives - then sorry. Really. "Loss of credibility" and all that? Really? Sigh. On this we do not agree. "Hey, I personally tried this myself and feel in my opinion that it's kick ass!" doesn't tell you much, but married to context and posting history so that you know what the poster is about and his/her preferences and experience goes far. Dismissing all that because of the language used as your primary trigger is basically dismissing 90% of the positives for any given subject and ignores the person posting it. The key here is always the CONTEXT. Context is key.

It's not the language or the 'gushing' guys. It's the context which - when added - makes the gushing work/not work in perspective. Let's be a little more adult here, it's not just this or that defining what has credibility or not. It's the context, the perspective and the history with that person's taste, talent, experience and preferences that makes it work... or not. Firmware 10.x kicked ass. You know it, I know it. So did 9.x. So did every other major version firmware compared to it's predecessor. Why? Because Cliff kept raising the bar when many - myself included - could not imagine at the time he possibly could. Every time, he blew my mind. Does that make me some sort of fool? Perhaps, but you know what? I don't really care. I speak honestly, and when I like something I say it. When I don't, I say it (though nicely if I can). There's a larger perspective to be viewed and considered other than worrying about what 'outsiders' think of 'Axe-FX'ers'. I mean, seriously? Who gives two shakes what a) an "outsider" even is, let alone what their perception of "axe-FX'ers' is. If that's your worry, well, I wouldn't spend any more time on Internet forums.

Heres the simple truth that has everyone all a bugger here today: it's not cool to piss in the pool as your introduction to a new forum, pure and simple. I don't care what forum or subject you choose; if your first post is full of red flags because of the language you use. Why? Because removed from the context, history, perspective and understanding of who/what/when/where/why you are posting... then sorry. You won't be received nicely on the 'home field' forum home for a given company owned fan forum if your first post starts off with, "I expect to get flamed for this...". It's NOT rocket science. Yea, you are gonna get flamed. Is it cool he got ripped? Is it right? No; but all the high roaders here are playing internet forum games. You do not come into a new (to you) forum and say, "Hi - the thing you are all passionate about over here... yea, well, my buddies and I think it sucked after hearing it for a bit."

But go on over analyzing it if you must. Guy came in, kicked open the doors to the saloon and pissed on the floor. He was nice enough to zip up his pants, but still. Even Cliff noted this guy was there a very limited time for some synth patches. Then Matt took the time to break down the whole story and - gasp - add the CONTEXT to the event.

The first post from our non-guitarist friend? Sorry, that's just bad social manners. Like it or not, it is. If some old timers that's been here a while took umbrage to it, well, so what. He knew he would take some heat - he even noted it in his post before he started the whole thing. He expected it, he got it and then he (and others) felt the need to shake their finger about about. Shame! Shame! LOL.

This isn't some Fractal Forum thing. For goodness sake, get out and see some other forums. Try a sports forum if you like. Or a car forum. Or a gamer forum. Go play that game somewhere else and see how it goes there. (note - it'll play the same way, but the result will be a MUCH more brutal ending. Trust me).
 
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John, did you have a chance to dial in a preset or play with any parameters or was it hands off and just listen to what was already dialed up?
Hey
No I did not play through the unit, there were tons of guys there ready and some I think drooling when they heard the guy before them. I was more interested in the changes, were certain controls sit in certain menu’s and so on and just listening to other guys play.
I tried to get a response from him to just to see if the topic could be salvaged but I believe it's a lost cause at this point, just waiting for someone to lock it up and throw away the key :roll.
I step away for a day and this thread takes on a life of it’s own, just taking a while to comb through it all.

Thanks for your take and the pics
No problem at all, I wanted to take more but I did not want to be a pain in the ass to Fractal, so one was good.
It's not clear to me why anyone besides Fractal Audio would be upset by Ken's review
What I think many are interested in is "Is it better than what I currently have (Standard or Ultra)?" and, if so, "Is the improved sound worth the additional purchase?"
I was really more bewildered?? I would have liked to peruse it a little more

For “trading up” I feel it’s worth it, however Ultra /Standard did not become crap overnight. Instead of #1 they became #2 and that’s still pretty dam good. I still will be keeping my Standard.

Jesuzz, too many posts discussing the discussion...
6L6C thanks for the insight. Wish I was there.
Well said! And no problem, it’s an exciting piece of gear I had to post, was bursting at the seams.
@6L6C Thanks for thread, although it seems to have gone off the rails. Did you get a chance to preview the unit through headphones at all?
No did not play the unit at all (I stated somewhere, I think ??) I was more interested in what was under the hood, let the other guy’s play and do the heavy lifting, I was just listening to them.
The only thing worse than a troll is a fanboi who drinks whatever koolaide they're given.
This is true but allot of times it is someone young and impulsive, I’m 47 so the young part is out the window! But I’m not an impulsive buyer with guitar gear, even as a kid. Especially electronic gear I usually like to wait at least a few months and see how something is fairing with the public. This time its different you could consider me an impulse buyer in this case and a “fanboi”, with some of the statements I made (and stand by). You will have to take my word for it, if I went to the show and was not impressed or felt the AF II was just a hair better than the current units I could walk away. A few days after the show and I still can’t wait to hit the “buy it now” or “send payment” button, whatever it is.

Also a fanboi of Fractal, good product, yes! Allot of companies make good products, so why a fan of Fratal?? Example: allot of companies have firmware bug’s, it happens, but have noticed unless it affects the masses in a big way fixes can take weeks if not months and sometimes if it is a bug that requires a unique situation, that problem may not be addressed at all. When Fractal discovers a bug, days. Even if it does not affect a large group of users. And let’s not forget all the upgrades that others charge for.

Another reason I’m a fanboi of Fractal

Version 11. They release this basically the same time as the announcement of the AF II and this was a major improvement, people were very happy with 10.xx. I believe others companies would not do this, for with a new unit coming out they would want to put as much distance between the old and new units, so people go for the new.
 
I'm thinking of starting a forum forum.
Give people a place to post bitches about forums.

There are forums for people that own/run forums too and they bitch about the members and how they bitch.

If you do start it, you could call it 'www.forumbitchers.com' LOL. :D
 
Great post, Scott. This is one of the nicer forums that I frequent (and am rather comfortable posting without fear of persecution lol). Aside from some of the old "fractal fanboi thinks modeling is all that, I'll stick with my tube half stack" and the defensive "maybe if you considered the 'modeling' in this way, you'd think differently" replies, this forum is pretty good. People here call BS when they see it. Sure sometimes things get heated when someone feels personally slighted, but usually there are enough level headed folks to reign things. I tell you, I see a lot of apologies here (and a lot of owning up as well) that I never see in any other forum.
 
There are forums for people that own/run forums too and they bitch about the members and how they bitch.

If you do start it, you could call it 'www.forumbitchers.com' LOL. :D

My first move would be to lock down every thread just to give them one more thing to bitch about. :D
 
It's not the language or the 'gushing' guys. It's the context which - when added - makes the gushing work/not work in perspective. Let's be a little more adult here, it's not just this or that defining what has credibility or not. It's the context, the perspective and the history with that person's taste, talent, experience and preferences that makes it work... or not.

This is the challenge Scott. How long will it take for a new forum member to get to know, really know, a particular person's taste, talent, experience and preference? Add to that the time required to understand their style of communication. Then multiply all of that by the number of active posters on a particular forum. All of this is done without face to fact contact and the information we acquire through body language. What you are suggesting can be very difficult to achieve. I've been on the forum for at least four years and I can't keep everyone straight any more.

I think I understand Jay's concern. I have seen, for example, "pickup of the month" cycles happen over and over again for years on guitar forums. Today's "best PAF replica" often becomes a has-been six months later when something new pops up. A particular vendor will gain prominence for a year and then fade as the pack moves on to the next latest and greatest winder.

I do think this is an area worth giving careful thought.

Terry.
 
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