Axe-FX II, Focusrite Saffire Pro 40, iMac 27 and SPDIF help needed

jsp0511

Member
Hello all,

I feel like I've scoured the internet for an answer and though I found many to get me to where I am now with my setup, there is one lingering problem I can't seem to figure out. Here is my setup and settings:

Axe-FX - Quantum 1.01 (newest)
Saffire Pro Mix control - 3.6 (newest)
Logic Pro X (newest, but not open during these tests)

Axe-FX SPDIF IN to Pro 40 OUT, Axe-FX SPDIF OUT to Pro 40 IN
Pro 40 out to QSC K12's L & R
PRS CE22 plugged directly into INSTR on front panel of Axe-FX
AXE-FX is connected to USB of iMac (I've tested with the USB disconnected, no change)
Pro 40 is connected to Firewire of iMac

Axe-FX settings:
Main input source - Analog (In 1)
World Clock - Auto
SPDIF/AES - SPDIF

Pro 40 Mix Control settings:
Sample Rate - 48 kHz
Sync Source - SPDIF


The issue seems to be intermittent. The Sync Status will go from "Locked" to "No Lock" causing an annoying popping sound to come from the monitors.

When I first turned the system on yesterday, the problem didn't seem to be there. When I turned it on today, it was happening almost uncontrollably. As I fiddled with settings, jumping back and forth, it seemed to calm down only happening when I muted the strings on the guitar. As I type this, the guitar sits on the stand with the volume all the way up and every so often it'll switch from Lock to No Lock giving off the popping. I then lower the volume to 0 on the guitar and the Lock to No Lock becomes more apparent. I will note that as the pop is occurring the volume level bar in the mix control peaks to red as well.

I'm not sure what else I can do to stop this from happening. It's just annoying at this point.

I appreciate any help you all can offer.

Thank you,
Jerry
 
I've got same Saffire, use Logic 9 and X, same Axe firmware on a 27" iMac and same version of Mix Control. Unfortunately I don't use SPDIF opting for analog ins and outs between Axe and Saffire 40.

A couple of questions though:
What OSX are you on?
Did this happen prior to upgrading Mix Control to 3.6?
Is your Saffire upgraded to the very latest firmware?
 
I've got same Saffire, use Logic 9 and X, same Axe firmware on a 27" iMac and same version of Mix Control. Unfortunately I don't use SPDIF opting for analog ins and outs between Axe and Saffire 40.

A couple of questions though:
What OSX are you on?
Did this happen prior to upgrading Mix Control to 3.6?
Is your Saffire upgraded to the very latest firmware?

I'm on the latest Mac OS before Yosemite. I will get the exact number for you.

I bought the Saffire used about two months ago so this is the only version of mix control I've used.
I'm assuming I upgraded the firmware when I got the unit but can't recall. I will check tomorrow when I get home from work.

I read in my research that with the spdif in and out (or maybe with just the "in"), the axe is always sending some sort of audio to help the input clock stay synced. I could be misremembering. My brain was ready to explode trying to understand all of this.

I also read that the saffire series and spdif did not work well with the axe but those posts were I believe 3+ years old.


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No need on the OSX. Was making sure it wasn't an El Capitan upgrade issue. Check the firmware as there may be a stability fix. I remember doing updates on my Saffire 40's a few months back so if you bought used you may be on older firmware.

I don't remember any specific issues mentioned between Axe and Saffire but like I said I just don't use the SPDIF. I remember a long (long) time ago it was stated that the analog outputs were equal or superior on the Axe FX, to the digital ones, and were actually what was recommended.

No doubt that has probably changed over the years but it always stuck in my head. My XL is sitting on top of my Saffire 40 and I have a couple of SPDIF cables. When I get a chance I can give it a try and see if my results are similar to yours.
 
Unfortunately I don't think you can use spdif in on the axe fx with the saffire line. I have a 14 and never got it to work. It's an issue of both devices needing to be in control, and the axe HAS to be the master.
 
Unfortunately I don't think you can use spdif in on the axe fx with the saffire line. I have a 14 and never got it to work. It's an issue of both devices needing to be in control, and the axe HAS to be the master.

Yeah.. I'm on OSX (latest prior to Yosemite) with a saffire pro 40. I use spdif out from axe to the saffire. Saffire is my main audio device. Axe has to be the master. I never got spdif in to axe from saffire to work... I remember trying to do this for re-amping.
 
I have the exact same setup you have, minus the K12's.

Make sure your project settings in Logic are set to 48khz. Pretty sure they default to 44 when start a new project.

Mine never gives me a problem except when I forget to set that correctly.

Hope that helps
 
I have the exact same setup you have, minus the K12's.

Make sure your project settings in Logic are set to 48khz. Pretty sure they default to 44 when start a new project.

Mine never gives me a problem except when I forget to set that correctly.

Hope that helps

I haven't yet incorporated Logic into the mix but I will make a mental note. Thank you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Unfortunately I don't think you can use spdif in on the axe fx with the saffire line. I have a 14 and never got it to work. It's an issue of both devices needing to be in control, and the axe HAS to be the master.

No problems here reamping via SPDIF with a Saffire Pro 24. Did you determine if your Axe-FX SPDIF input works with any other device?

When using SPDIF in on the Axe, the other device has to be the master. The OP isn't doing that though, with the settings described.

Jerry, have you tried a different SPDIF cable from Axe SPDIF out to Saffire SPDIF in? Since a Saffire Out - Axe In cable isn't needed for 1-way recording, try that cable for Axe Out - Saffire In. Any details on what type of cables? Something labeled as being suitable for SPDIF vs. random RCA cable, for example. If there are other cables/electronics nearby, can you move the Axe/Saffire & SPDIF cable farther away from everything else?

Another thing you could do is change the Axe-FX word clock parameter from auto to SPDIF/AES with both SPDIF cables connected, and set the Saffire sync source to Internal. This will allow the Saffire to be master. The "No Lock" message shouldn't appear then, but this might not guarantee the signal is received flawlessly. (It should be flawless when everything works as intended.)
 
No problems here reamping via SPDIF with a Saffire Pro 24. Did you determine if your Axe-FX SPDIF input works with any other device?

When using SPDIF in on the Axe, the other device has to be the master. The OP isn't doing that though, with the settings described.

Jerry, have you tried a different SPDIF cable from Axe SPDIF out to Saffire SPDIF in? Since a Saffire Out - Axe In cable isn't needed for 1-way recording, try that cable for Axe Out - Saffire In. Any details on what type of cables? Something labeled as being suitable for SPDIF vs. random RCA cable, for example. If there are other cables/electronics nearby, can you move the Axe/Saffire & SPDIF cable farther away from everything else?

Another thing you could do is change the Axe-FX word clock parameter from auto to SPDIF/AES with both SPDIF cables connected, and set the Saffire sync source to Internal. This will allow the Saffire to be master. The "No Lock" message shouldn't appear then, but this might not guarantee the signal is received flawlessly. (It should be flawless when everything works as intended.)

The scenario I listed in the OP is when playing into the axe so axe out to saffire in. The sound of the guitar is fine when the clipping is not occurring. I did swap the wires and checked the tightness of the connections. Tinkering with and swapping them did not change anything. Even just running the axe out to the saffire in with the other disconnected did not make a change.

The wires I am using are brand new Belden 1694A Coaxial Digital Audio Cable, 6 foot, RCA/RCA, Orange from blue jeans cable.

I did also try the scenario at the end of your post. When the mix control reads no lock, the popping is crazy.

I will turn everything on tomorrow and take video.

Two things...

1. Could it actually take some time for the clocks to sync? As I stated earlier, as I was typing my OP, the problem was starting to get better.

2. Once the issue did subside, the only time it happened was when I had the volume on the guitar all the way at 0. If I left the volume on the guitar between 1-10 and simply had the guitar on the stand, there was a slight ambient noise from the guitar, almost silence but enough to have the popping not occur.

I did not try another unit with my axe to see if the spdif works as i have no other unit to test. As I stated above, the sound quality is as if I went from the axe direct to the k12s. No complaints there.

I'm new to spdif so please bare with me. Thanks all


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Try setting the axe clock to SPDIf in and Saffire to internal.
I had problem when clocking the Saffire with external device
 
I tried every trick in the book. I verified my spdif in on the axe was working properly. I could never get the saffire to click to an external device and it never worked. I'm not alone in the problem.
 
I had limited time to test today but results were utterly frustrating. I turned everything on with the settings I left yesterday and nothing worked right.

The levels on mix control spdif 1.1 and 1.2 were jumping up and down uncontrollably. If I strum the guitar, the sound fades up after a 1-3sec delay of silence (1-3sec after i strum) and intermittently cuts out and back in as the guitar is still ringing out.

I then removed the pro 40 out to axe in just to eliminate a cable in the mix and assumed this would change nothing, which is what happened.

I then tried every combination of settings and nothing made the issue get better. Yesterday the issue slowly fixed itself as I let everything rest. Today that did not happen.

1. Is my spdif wire correct? Belden 1694A Coaxial Digital Audio Cable, 6 foot, RCA/RCA

2. Should I be using spdif 1.1 and 1.2 in mix control?

3. How don't get a dry signal into logic using this setup assuming everything was working?..for re-amping purposes.

4. If I scrap spdif and just go xlr left and right out of axe into pro 40, how do I get a dry signal into logic for re-amping purposes?

Any other thoughts or suggestions on this are all welcomed. I work a night shift so will post a video tomorrow turning the system on and going through some settings.

Thank you,
Jerry



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1. That cable should be fine.

2. Yes, those numbers refer to the left/right SPDIF channels.

3. Several methods for that:

a. Route dry and DI through separate grid lines, balancing L/R at output mixer, recording SPDIF. Any input noise gating will be applied to the DI signal in this case, so you may want to disable input gate. A separate gate block can be used in the amped path, and when reamping the input gate can be used if desired.

b. Set USB/Digi Out Source to "input" on Axe-FX. This will send the DI signal to SPDIF automatically, but that's all the SPDIF output will be. Processed tracks would need to be recorded via analog outputs.

c. Create aggregate sound device including Axe-FX USB and Saffire. This may turn out to be somewhat unnecessary most of the time. (See point 5 below.)

4. You would need to either route as in 3a. above, or set Output 2 Echo to "input" and record that. Or you could route DI in the grid to FX Loop block and record Out 2.

One more option:

5. You could use the Axe-FX as sound device when tracking. This will let you record Out 1 (processed, on USB channels 1/2) along with a DI track (USB 3 or 4). You could keep the speakers connected to the Saffire and run XLR or 1/4" from Axe Out 1 to Saffire. This would be your zero-latency monitoring path with Saffire really just being a mixer at this point. You'd even have the option of monitoring processed with effects like delays/reverb, but recording only the pre-effects/amp/cab tone plus DI signal. (Put amp/cab adjacently, send this signal to FX Loop block, set USB/Digi Out source to Output 2. This makes USB channels 1/2 have whatever you're sending to FXL i.e. Output 2.) Then if you can get SPDIF working, you could switch to Saffire as sound device and be able to reamp while hearing the full stereo mix. This isn't possible when using only Axe-FX USB as sound device.
 
No problems here reamping via SPDIF with a Saffire Pro 24. Did you determine if your Axe-FX SPDIF input works with any other device?

When using SPDIF in on the Axe, the other device has to be the master. The OP isn't doing that though, with the settings described.

Jerry, have you tried a different SPDIF cable from Axe SPDIF out to Saffire SPDIF in? Since a Saffire Out - Axe In cable isn't needed for 1-way recording, try that cable for Axe Out - Saffire In. Any details on what type of cables? Something labeled as being suitable for SPDIF vs. random RCA cable, for example. If there are other cables/electronics nearby, can you move the Axe/Saffire & SPDIF cable farther away from everything else?

Another thing you could do is change the Axe-FX word clock parameter from auto to SPDIF/AES with both SPDIF cables connected, and set the Saffire sync source to Internal. This will allow the Saffire to be master. The "No Lock" message shouldn't appear then, but this might not guarantee the signal is received flawlessly. (It should be flawless when everything works as intended.)

Bakerman,

What settings are you using exactly? I will try to mirror those tomorrow.


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Axe-FX word clock: Auto

In Mixcontrol:

Sample Rate: 48 kHz

Firewire driver latency: Medium

(ASIO Buffer Size: 512 -- Parameter only available in Windows.)

I don't know if the FW Driver Latency setting could cause what you're encountering, but changing it is one more thing you could try.

-------------------

When playing/tracking guitar, 1-way SPDIF for monitoring/recording:

Mixcontrol sync source: SPDIF

Axe-FX main input source: Analog (In 1)

-----------------

When reamping via SPDIF:

Mixcontrol Sync source: Internal

Axe-FX main input source: SPDIF/AES

--------------------

Aside from the latency setting, I think that matches what you've described.

Here's one more thing you could try: When you have Mixcontrol set to this semi-working state (48k, sync source SPDIF, guitar through Axe to Saffire), click the File menu and choose "Save to Hardware". Then switch the Saffire off, disconnect the Firewire cable, and turn the Saffire back on. Does it sound fine monitored through Saffire outputs now?

If not, also try connecting both SPDIF cables, switching Axe word clock (just word clock, not Main input source) parameter to SPDIF/AES, and setting Mixcontrol sync source to Internal. Then execute "Save to Hardware" again, power off, disconnect FW cable, power on & check sound.

Test the Saffire with another computer if possible too.
 
Axe-FX word clock: Auto

In Mixcontrol:

Sample Rate: 48 kHz

Firewire driver latency: Medium

(ASIO Buffer Size: 512 -- Parameter only available in Windows.)

I don't know if the FW Driver Latency setting could cause what you're encountering, but changing it is one more thing you could try.

-------------------

When playing/tracking guitar, 1-way SPDIF for monitoring/recording:

Mixcontrol sync source: SPDIF

Axe-FX main input source: Analog (In 1)

-----------------

When reamping via SPDIF:

Mixcontrol Sync source: Internal

Axe-FX main input source: SPDIF/AES

--------------------

Aside from the latency setting, I think that matches what you've described.

Here's one more thing you could try: When you have Mixcontrol set to this semi-working state (48k, sync source SPDIF, guitar through Axe to Saffire), click the File menu and choose "Save to Hardware". Then switch the Saffire off, disconnect the Firewire cable, and turn the Saffire back on. Does it sound fine monitored through Saffire outputs now?

If not, also try connecting both SPDIF cables, switching Axe word clock (just word clock, not Main input source) parameter to SPDIF/AES, and setting Mixcontrol sync source to Internal. Then execute "Save to Hardware" again, power off, disconnect FW cable, power on & check sound.

Test the Saffire with another computer if possible too.

Today I turn everything on and it's back to a similar state as the first day I posted. Little to no popping with the guitar volume up, a pop every 1-2 sec with the volume down. If I pull the guitar cable from the guitar, the popping goes away completely and you hear the ambient noise you're accustomed to hearing when a guitar cable is in the amp but not in a guitar. If I then pull the cable from the input of the Axe, I get the same result as the cable plugged into the guitar with the volume at 0.

I tried both scenarios saving to hardware and disconnecting the firewire. I got the same results as if the firewire were connected. I do not have another computer to test this one and after my findings with disconnecting the firewire, I don't think that would change much.

While testing all of this I put an XLR from the Axe to input 8 on the Saffire. The popping did not come through input 8 when it occurred on the SPDIF channels. I did notice one odd thing though. If I turned the volume down and waited a short time then turned it back up and started playing, it took 5-8 seconds for input 8 to output sound through my monitors. Not sure whats going on there. I will investigate more after I resolve the SPDIF issue or abandon it all together.

A few questions:

What does SPDIF AC3 Mode under settings do?

Could I go AES in/out of the Axe to the SPDIF in/out (with the proper cable of course)? If yes, do you think it would yield similar results?

When I play the guitar, I notice the Out 1 Clip red light comes on immediately. Could this mean anything? How can I adjust the output of the SPDIF so the light does not come on?

In Mix Control, what could SPDIf 1.2 and 2.2 be used for and why are they greyed out in my instance?
 
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Jesus.

I opened Logic X and lost all sound which was not shocking. I had set up a jam template but that was before I got the Saffire. I could still see the levels in Mix Control showing there was still input, I just couldn't hear it. I then closed Logic and still had no sound coming through my monitors. I then shut the Axe and the Saffire and turned them back on. I plugged my acoustic into input 1 just to see if it was the entire interface or just the SPDIF I was having an issue with. Still no sound. I then unplugged one of the Saffire outputs and went right to the Axe output to confirm that my monitors still worked, they did. I put that back to normal. I then unplugged both SPDIFs from the back of the Saffire just to try and isolate one of the standard inputs on the Saffire just to get sound back. Turned everything off then back on and sound came back.

I then plugged the SPDIF back in and decided to open a Mix Control jam template I created when I was setting up my acoustic and bass through inputs 1 and 2 on the front of the Saffire. Just like that, everything seems to be working fine. There is no delay on my analog inputs and my SPDIF has one pop everything couple of minutes, if that, when the volume is off on the guitar.

I have no idea if maybe the SPDIF in/outs are dusty or dirty which could be helping to cause my issue. I did purchase the unit used and who really uses these things besides the few people in this thread. :devilish:

I will continue to monitor and post if the problem returns. I wonder if the order in which I turn the Axe and Saffire on has anything to do with the clock syncing correctly.


If you guys could help answer the questions on my previous post, that would be great!

A few questions:

What does SPDIF AC3 Mode under settings do?

Could I go AES in/out of the Axe to the SPDIF in/out (with the proper cable of course)? If yes, do you think it would yield similar results?

When I play the guitar, I notice the Out 1 Clip red light comes on immediately. Could this mean anything? How can I adjust the output of the SPDIF so the light does not come on?

In Mix Control, what could SPDIf 1.2 and 2.2 be used for and why are they greyed out in my instance?


EDIT: 40 minutes since this post and not a pop or click. I can't explain it and I'm not gonna complain about it.
 
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What does SPDIF AC3 Mode under settings do?

Could I go AES in/out of the Axe to the SPDIF in/out (with the proper cable of course)? If yes, do you think it would yield similar results?

When I play the guitar, I notice the Out 1 Clip red light comes on immediately. Could this mean anything? How can I adjust the output of the SPDIF so the light does not come on?

1. It enables sending AC3-encoded audio e.g. 5.1-channel on DVD directly to SPDIF output. Manual has some details too. Leave off if not doing this. (Switching on doesn't seem to have any negative effects here w/ Pro 24, but this is pointless.)

2. This might work, and it's not a bad idea at this point. Some devices can deal with either type of source and the status bit & voltage differences. Or a dedicated converter can be used. Q. Can I connect an AES output to an S/PDIF input?

You could instead try a SPDIF coaxial to optical converter, like this: http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Coaxial-Toslink-Optical-Converter/dp/B001622FL8/ (Monoprice.com has it for $12 but the site seems to be down now.)

3. Usually it means your preset level is too high. Check the Output 1 Boost/Pad parameter in the I/O: Audio menu first, and set to 0 dB if not already. Also verify Out 1 Global EQ is set flat at 0 dB (or close enough) with MAIN slider at 0 dB. Then reduce the amp block OUTPUT LEVEL parameter until the clipping stops. Level could also be adjusted in a later block (cab etc.) or OUTPUT block.

Before you do this, it might be useful to gather some details: Has the clip indication been happening on every preset? What's the CPU usage (UTILITY: STATUS page) on the presets that light the clip LED? Does this happen with no USB cable connected?

Once you've reduced level to avoid clipping: If you set the Saffire to internal sync, does monitoring the Axe SPDIF output happen to sound okay? It's not the correct/ideal setting for one-way SPDIF, just a troubleshooting step. The sound may seem fine, or have a slight crackle/distortion, but I'm wondering if the major dropouts you described still occur.

Post a video if you can. I don't know if there would be any important settings in the OS X sound devices menu, but could you get video or a screenshot of that too?
 
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