Axe-Fx II "Ares" Rev 1.03 Firmware Release

Running a sine wave test tone from synth block into a UAudio console, have confirmed there is a -3 db differential in signal output between the XLRs' on the back (hit -21) of the Axe-Fx II with the Output Level 1 knob maxxed out, and the S/PDIF digital output (hits -18).

Something to be aware of...
For someone who is not well versed, what does this mean in a practical sense? If running XLR's to two studio monitors there would be a volume difference of 3db between them?
 
For someone who is not well versed, what does this mean in a practical sense? If running XLR's to two studio monitors there would be a volume difference of 3db between them?

I like to make presets for people to use where the amp output level digitally (via S/PDIF, and presumably AES when an option) is exactly the same as the level coming out the rear XLRs -- they should be same signal level on each meter going into a console (or very very close).

Under what I discovered, I can't do that anymore. The XLR signal will always be 3db quieter than the SPDIF signal. A single preset thus as "two levels" depending on which playback system you use. That means if I level presets for XLR use, the S/PDIF will be 3db hotter. If I level them for S/PDIF use, the XLR level will be 3 db quieter -- even with Output 1 knob maxxed (so you can't compensate by cranking up the Output 1 knob. It may be Fletcher Munson curve effect, but the digital S/PDIF signal sounds a little different to me to, tonally...

So if someone says "my Axe-Fx II Naked Amps or Dream Rigs AustinBuddy presets sound quieter now under ARES 1.03, why?" - then you are likely using XLR outs and your ears aren't fooling you -- it is -3db less than the actual digital signal I leveled everything on, meter wise, to hit at an average -12db for guitar signals. Make sense?
 
I like to make presets for people to use where the amp output level digitally (via S/PDIF, and presumably AES when an option) is exactly the same as the level coming out the rear XLRs -- they should be same signal level on each meter going into a console (or very very close).

Under what I discovered, I can't do that anymore. The XLR signal will always be 3db quieter than the SPDIF signal. A single preset thus as "two levels" depending on which playback system you use. That means if I level presets for XLR use, the S/PDIF will be 3db hotter. If I level them for S/PDIF use, the XLR level will be 3 db quieter -- even with Output 1 knob maxxed (so you can't compensate by cranking up the Output 1 knob. It may be Fletcher Munson curve effect, but the digital S/PDIF signal sounds a little different to me to, tonally...

So if someone says "my Axe-Fx II Naked Amps or Dream Rigs AustinBuddy presets sound quieter now under ARES 1.03, why?" - then you are likely using XLR outs and your ears aren't fooling you -- it is -3db less than the actual digital signal I leveled everything on, meter wise, to hit at an average -12db for guitar signals. Make sense?
Something in your setup changed. There were no changes to the AES/SPDIF level.
 
Something in your setup changed. There were no changes to the AES/SPDIF level.

Thanks. Cliff, if, you say it's me, then it's me, but I thought it important to report and also see if others have/see similar issue.

The difference is noticeable in my console. I did audio example below.

Loop plays twice through the maxxed Output1, then after short silence the same loop plays twice through S/PDIF. This is direct into Logic.



I did this test also with sine wave/synth block and got exactly -21db on XLR and -18db on S/PDIF.

Tried two different S/PDIFs into two different UAudios units (to make sure that the Twin's TosLink optical convertor wasn't maybe mucking with it - the other Apollo 8 input doesn't use a convertor/goes straight to Axe-Fx II).

Under Quantum 8, 9 (and I think 10), I used to run my XL Output1 at 11:30/noon and that preset signal from XLRs matched the S/PDIF signal output on my console.

Under ARES 1.03, now have to max the Output1 knob to get XLR signal to approximate S/PDIF signal level -- and am still -3db short of the S/PDIF digital signal strength on meters into my UAudio console on every preset.

Adding a third Apollo 8 unit a few months ago is only thing changed. Can't see why that addition may have kicked up a S/PDIF level 3db, but maybe so... No such controls or pads on S/PDIF in UAudio Console.

Cliff, do your Axe-Fx II's AES output and S/PDIF digital output levels also visually match your XLR output signal levels on console meters off same preset into a digital console?

The new challenge for me is preset leveling for any TonePacks updates on the Axe-Fx II. If I level to XLRs at -12db, then S/PDIF can be too hot. If I level to S/PDIF at -12db, then XLRs outs will sound weaker than in the past on those presets to users not using S/PDIF...

Thought maybe a workaround was, "I'll just add 3db at Global EQ Output1 to compensate at XLR level" and advise others to do the same if they see same issue -- but in testing that, I see that 3db addition at Global EQ also affects S/PDIF output signal levels too...

Thanks for reviewing. I know you have more important fish to fry...
 
Check if you haven’t padded down the input on the Apollo line input. Are you running them -10 or +4. Are you using line inputs or preamp in on the apollo? Turning the output level to max will easily clip the converters on the apollo. From reading you post it’s more likely you lowered analog gain on the input of the apollo.
 
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OK, I just tried that new firmware today. Although I stated the changes in Ares 1.00 where not striking me, I must say that now I ear something new and really pleasing. Can't get precise words on it but that sounds like an improvement to me.
Great job FAS, and thanks for porting all that for us on the Axe 2 ! You rock !
 
OK, I just tried that new firmware today. Although I stated the changes in Ares 1.00 where not striking me, I must say that now I ear something new and really pleasing.
Same here. Ares 1.00 did nothing for me, but 1.03 makes a difference. Usually the firmware updates which impress me bring improved clarity. This time it’s more about the way the note develops.
 
Check if you haven’t padded down the input on the Apollo line input. Are you running them -10 or +4. Are you using line inputs or preamp in on the apollo? Turning the output level to max will easily clip the converters on the apollo. From reading you post it’s more likely you lowered analog gain on the input of the apollo.

Nope. Axe-Fx II does not have a -10/+4 switch. SPDIF is direct into console channel. My XLRs are not into Mic Preamps, I use XLR to TRS 2 feet cables, they go right i to channel inputs with no Unison or other inserts on channel. There is no passing on these analog in channels. Appreciate the check list. I would be delighted to find an error that corrects the -3db discrepancy, but I can’t think of one. Cliff says it is not the firmware upgrade. So unless other people run the test and corroborate either no difference or do replicate the -3db, this is moot.

Try it. Use a synth block, sine wave. Set trigger to off. Instant signal steady to outs.

From Axe-Fx II on AREs q.03 firmware, Do a S/PDIF out cable into a digital console or a DAW, and an XLR cable out to console, with no preamps orgain. No inserts.

On mine the XLR synth sine wave is a flat and unwavering -21db on fader meter scale, with the Output1 knob fully clockwise. Next to it, the same S/PDIF synth sine wave shows -18db.

I have always assumed in past the digital level Is the correct one.
 
Nope. Axe-Fx II does not have a -10/+4 switch. SPDIF is direct into console channel. My XLRs are not into Mic Preamps, I use XLR to TRS 2 feet cables, they go right i to channel inputs with no Unison or other inserts on channel. There is no passing on these analog in channels. Appreciate the check list. I would be delighted to find an error that corrects the -3db discrepancy, but I can’t think of one. Cliff says it is not the firmware upgrade. So unless other people run the test and corroborate either no difference or do replicate the -3db, this is moot.

Try it. Use a synth block, sine wave. Set trigger to off. Instant signal steady to outs.

From Axe-Fx II on AREs q.03 firmware, Do a S/PDIF out cable into a digital console or a DAW, and an XLR cable out to console, with no preamps orgain. No inserts.

On mine the XLR synth sine wave is a flat and unwavering -21db on fader meter scale, with the Output1 knob fully clockwise. Next to it, the same S/PDIF synth sine wave shows -18db.

I have always assumed in past the digital level Is the correct one.
I’m not talking about the Axe fx. I’m talking about the line level inputs on the apollo. It has a switch for -10/+4. If you have been using it in -10 Mode before and switched it to +4 the level will be -14db less. The input levels on the analog inputs and the digital is a different thing. Analog depends on gain settings etc..I will check on my apollo’s tomorrow. I’m away for the weekend. When it comes to the digital signal, just lower the fader in the console app to match and it will be the same.
 
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It will be 11.8dB less. The +4 setting is usually expressed in dBu while -10 is dBV.

I'm pointing it out just because I'm one of the pickiest guy on the planet :p
Well that sounds about right from what you described. If you max output level on the Axe it will get way to loud normally, and it will start to distort inside the Axe.
 
On mine the XLR synth sine wave is a flat and unwavering -21db on fader meter scale, with the Output1 knob fully clockwise. Next to it, the same S/PDIF synth sine wave shows -18db.

I have always assumed in past the digital level Is the correct one.

This 3 dB difference doesn't mean much on its own. For example, XLR out to balanced TRS line input on my Focusrite interface gives 1.5 dB higher recorded level than SPDIF when Out 1 knob is at 100%. That value just tells you something about analog input sensitivity of different devices/inputs.

What you should do is check whether pre-Ares firmware changes what you're seeing (the 3 dB difference) with everything else kept the same. I'm guessing it won't change, because it didn't when I tested this earlier today. Then, start considering what could have changed downstream.

You mentioned the Apollo 8 interface. In the manual it says this: "When the preamps are bypassed, line inputs 1 – 4 operate at a fixed reference level of +4 dBu. When routed into the preamps, gain for line inputs 1 – 4 is continuously variable with up to 65 dB of available gain." Maybe look for that setting and consider whether you're 100% sure you checked it before.
 
Guys, I am getting a major difference in both tone and volume going S/PDIF in to console versus XLR into console. Is anybody else noticing this?

Hi Austin, like you i use S/PDIFout and XLR output1 into my MOTU 828 MKII.
Like Cliff said, there's no change in tone and volume with Ares 1.03.
Like always, S/PDIF is just a little brighter than the XLR.
 
Hi Austin, like you i use S/PDIFout and XLR output1 into my MOTU 828 MKII.
Like Cliff said, there's no change in tone and volume with Ares 1.03.
Like always, S/PDIF is just a little brighter than the XLR.
Makes sense since it’s not colored by two steps of converting.
 
Hi Austin, like you i use S/PDIFout and XLR output1 into my MOTU 828 MKII.
Like Cliff said, there's no change in tone and volume with Ares 1.03.
Like always, S/PDIF is just a little brighter than the XLR.
So you see no 3db difference? Good to know.
 
I’m not talking about the Axe fx. I’m talking about the line level inputs on the apollo. It has a switch for -10/+4. If you have been using it in -10 Mode before and switched it to +4 the level will be -14db less. The input levels on the analog inputs and the digital is a different thing. Analog depends on gain settings etc..I will check on my apollo’s tomorrow. I’m away for the weekend. When it comes to the digital signal, just lower the fader in the console app to match and it will be the same.

I appreciate the response and help. The line level settings at top of my UAudio console for those non-mic inputs where the XLR is coming in at is set for +4db as always...so that's not it.
 
Well that sounds about right from what you described. If you max output level on the Axe it will get way to loud normally, and it will start to distort inside the Axe.

Hi Kjetil: Totally agree with the first part of your sentence here - I've always had myAxe-Fx II Output1 knob set at just under noon and left ti there when leveled all the presets under Quantum firmware, and now that knob has to be at max to get the signal at -12db where I want it.

That's what got me to do the side-by-side comparison test (which I've done before and documented on the YouTube Preset/Gain leveling video. Technically is now no longer accurate with this change!. But this is how I discovered that -3db difference. But the second sentence part I don't think is totally accurate - that knob does not affect the signal inside the Axe-Fx I'm pretty sure.

The bottom line for me: I will level all future Axe-FX XL presets using an XLR output getting to -12db, and then let the S/PDIF signal "fall where it will" and be a little hotter at -9db. Appreciate you chipping in to offer advice/help! Didn't mean to derail thread -- thought this might be a new firmware thing, but Cliff says no, so...
 
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