Axe FX II and feature creep

[GreatGreen]

Not quite. It's more along the lines of not displaying all the roads in the world on your GPS but rather only show the roads you will use when you're trying to get from point A -> point B.

But that's exactly what the Axe-Fx already does. All the roads you don't use are already hidden away. You have to go seek them out to find them (by going a few tabs to the right in the amp block).

What I'm hearing you say is that even though you don't have to make things complicated, you deliberately go out of your way to seek out that complication, then complain about the complexity.

I don't understand that mentality. The Axe-Fx makes the advanced stuff incredibly easy to ignore... so just ignore it if you don't want to use it. Cliff could add a thousand more crazy and arcane parameters to the advanced tab tomorrow and that would have absolutely ZERO effect on the basic preamp and poweramp tabs.

 

[sprint]

Problem with this from a new users' point of view is that they still have to go through all amps in order to find the one they like.



Providing a "easy mode" skin for the Axe-FX does not impact you so I don't see the problem if they don't actually remove any features, just hides them from view when in easy mode. Using the advanced mode would be exactly how it is now.

There's also the other end of that stick, regarding games. I've played games that haven't caved and dumbed it down but kept it difficult. This was great for the current users who had already learned the game so they had a steady fanbase but the game died anyway due to 1) having difficulty getting new players and 2) old players eventually left due to having other things to do in life/found another game.



Completely agree!

I haven't used the Axe-FX for more than a year now and I'm kind of dreading to start using it again due to all new things that have come out. Having an easy mode interface would make it really easy to get back into the game and after having learned that, starting to dive deeper into the more advanced features. It's all about easing the learning curve for the end-user. The Axe-FX is indeed a very complicated unit with a lot of power, dumbing down the interface during the initial learning stage makes sure the user doesn't get discouraged from continuing.

But, but, but, why? As stated earlier, the basic / easy to understand controls are already presented on a separate default tab in most cases for those who don't want to dive deeper. If you don't want to go deeper but choose to do so anyway and get frustrated, then no wonderful new novice mode will save you from yourself.

I agree this thread is going in circles but knowing that FAS really listens to customers' opinions here, I'm piping up to vote NO for a novice mode since I think it would be redundant "feature" and would take development resources away from other requests that would yield more value.

 

[quonsar]

There is no spoon.

Yeah, but we haven't seen the release notes for V15 yet.

 

[Tanax]

But that's exactly what the Axe-Fx already does. All the roads you don't use are already hidden away. You have to go seek them out to find them (by going a few tabs to the right in the amp block).

What I'm hearing you say is that even though you don't have to make things complicated, you deliberately go out of your way to seek out that complication, then complain about the complexity.

I don't understand that mentality. The Axe-Fx makes the advanced stuff incredibly easy to ignore... so just ignore it if you don't want to use it. Cliff could add a thousand more crazy and arcane parameters to the advanced tab tomorrow and that would have absolutely ZERO effect on the basic preamp and poweramp tabs.

But, but, but, why? As stated earlier, the basic / easy to understand controls are already presented on a separate default tab in most cases for those who don't want to dive deeper. If you don't want to go deeper but choose to do so anyway and get frustrated, then no wonderful new novice mode will save you from yourself.

I agree this thread is going in circles but knowing that FAS really listens to customers' opinions here, I'm piping up to vote NO for a novice mode since I think it would be redundant "feature" and would take development resources away from other requests that would yield more value.

The problem that occurs often for me is that I try to create a sound and it doesn't quite sound as good as I want it. So I try to dive into the advanced tab but get confused at all the options. The difficult learning curve isn't so much to learn the default tab settings but rather going from the default into the advanced the learning curve gets super steep. What's sag? I can hear that something is changing in the sound but what? Is it what I want to use to get the sound I want?

I think what is needed is a video tutorial explaining every commonly used advanced setting. This will decrease the learning curve between basic and advanced settings which is what I think is needed. I don't think that anyone here who has suggested a more "easy mode" skin have any troubles learning what the treble, bass, mids, gain and all the other things on the basic page do. It's the things in the advanced page that is difficult to understand and quite sadly, it's also those advanced settings you need in order to really get a *great* sound.

 

[zenaxe]

The problem that occurs often for me is that I try to create a sound and it doesn't quite sound as good as I want it. So I try to dive into the advanced tab but get confused at all the options. The difficult learning curve isn't so much to learn the default tab settings but rather going from the default into the advanced the learning curve gets super steep. What's sag? I can hear that something is changing in the sound but what? Is it what I want to use to get the sound I want?

I think what is needed is a video tutorial explaining every commonly used advanced setting. This will decrease the learning curve between basic and advanced settings which is what I think is needed. I don't think that anyone here who has suggested a more "easy mode" skin have any troubles learning what the treble, bass, mids, gain and all the other things on the basic page do. It's the things in the advanced page that is difficult to understand and quite sadly, it's also those advanced settings you need in order to really get a *great* sound.

Huh? The issue is that learning is hard? The Wiki is there, the Manual and Release Notes are there, the Cliffs Notes forum is there, Scott P's mix cabs, videos, and patches (along with Fremen's, Yejk's and others) are there, the knobs are there to experiment/play with or leave alone as you please (back up your sounds first no presets will be harmed in your tweaking), your ears and hands are there to measure the results. If you can't be bothered with any of that, you still have tone matching, which is utterly *trivial* with this device, provided you have a good recording of something or an existing rig.

What more do you guys want? Cliff to come to your house and dial in your tones? Were you raised on planet Ritalin or something where if it has more than one button or requires reading a manual to operate you can't be bothered?

There are tons of resources. More than I have mentioned, nothing is undocumented, but you have to do some learning on your own to acquire any kind of skill and that is not always instantaneous or trivial, sorry. Sort of like playing the guitar.

 

[Moltenmetalburn]

Nothing should ever be dumbed down so ignorant users can be catered.

Ignorant users need to learn how to use the devices they choose to buy. RTFM. End of story.

No real benefit in " give a man a fish" menus.

 

[Tanax]

Huh? The issue is that learning is hard? The Wiki is there, the Manual and Release Notes are there, the Cliffs Notes forum is there, Scott P's mix cabs, videos, and patches (along with Fremen's, Yejk's and others) are there, the knobs are there to experiment/play with or leave alone as you please (back up your sounds first no presets will be harmed in your tweaking), your ears and hands are there to measure the results. If you can't be bothered with any of that, you still have tone matching, which is utterly *trivial* with this device, provided you have a good recording of something or an existing rig.

What more do you guys want? Cliff to come to your house and dial in your tones? Were you raised on planet Ritalin or something where if it has more than one button or requires reading a manual to operate you can't be bothered?

There are tons of resources. More than I have mentioned, nothing is undocumented, but you have to do some learning on your own to acquire any kind of skill and that is not always instantaneous or trivial, sorry. Sort of like playing the guitar.

I didn't even know there was a Wiki. Where can that be found?
I have no issues with reading, had I known about the Wiki, but I find that videos is a better media for teaching as it can also illustrate sound - which in the context of teaching how something alter the way the unit sounds is rather important, don't you think?

 

[Deaj]

Yes great idea. He could start by stopping spending money uselessly and shutdown the forum, since apparently exchanging opinions is frowned upon..

Though I understand that your response and the message to which you responded are merely sarcasm intended to drive a point of view, I disagree with your sentiment 'exchanging opinions is frowned upon'.

The OP expressed an opinion in hopes to start a discussion. The respondents then expressed their opinions - mostly in disagreement. The OP then began to respond upset that others were not discussing the merits of his proposed idea(s) and stating that others were not sticking to the subject. More responses came with a majority in disagreement with the OP. The OP responded, appearing quite upset that others are still not discussing the merits of his proposed idea(s) ans stating that others were not sticking to the subject. Further replies were made in disagreement with the OP..... etc, etc, etc.

The bottom line here is that most do not feel there is any merit in the OP's proposed idea(s). Most feel that any effort placed towards redesigning the UI (in any way, for any reason) would be counter-productive. Most feel that, while certainly valid for him, the OP's opinion does not resonate with the majority of the AxeFX II user base here on this forum. The OP is upset because his subject did not generate the discussion he was hoping for and continues to try to re-introduce the subject hoping it will change the discussion. It is what it is. Getting upset won't change it.

I would submit then that an exchange of opinions definitely took place here.

 

[GreatGreen]

The problem that occurs often for me is that I try to create a sound and it doesn't quite sound as good as I want it. So I try to dive into the advanced tab but get confused at all the options. The difficult learning curve isn't so much to learn the default tab settings but rather going from the default into the advanced the learning curve gets super steep. What's sag? I can hear that something is changing in the sound but what? Is it what I want to use to get the sound I want?

I think what is needed is a video tutorial explaining every commonly used advanced setting. This will decrease the learning curve between basic and advanced settings which is what I think is needed. I don't think that anyone here who has suggested a more "easy mode" skin have any troubles learning what the treble, bass, mids, gain and all the other things on the basic page do. It's the things in the advanced page that is difficult to understand and quite sadly, it's also those advanced settings you need in order to really get a *great* sound.

I see what you're saying, and the solution is to hit up the wiki and get to reading! Even if Sag was the only advanced parameter, you still wouldn't know what it did if you didn't bother to read up on it. That's not a user interface issue, that's a user issue, but that's fine and it only takes a minute to remedy. The Axe's screen isn't big enough to provide a complete description of every parameter, so all that can be done is call it the most intuitive thing that will fit under 10 or 12 characters and go from there, lol. The wiki is incredibly complete though so if you ever have a question, you should definitely hit up that place.

 

[McChiel]

Well, the issue that made him think it was too complicated for him was pretty much the modifier stuff (I tried to replicate one of his wahs and a volume control by expression pedals) and the X/Y switching of amps. I mean, he was kind of used to having a 2-button switch that selects the different amp channels and it took me quite a while to explain how and why I used scenes with X/Y amp settings to achieve that functionality (as he had a 3 channel amp).
So it wasn't really the tone match feature that was the issue (I told him tone matching is just high definition auto-EQing and that he doesn't really need to bother with it).

I respect the point you've made so far but this stings imho. You've shown a n00b an expert way of dealing with stuff. 3 channels means 3 patches for a n00b. Done! Maybe that's the issue with the axe, some people are looking for the solution that fits their knowledge best, but there may be an easier/more comprehensible solution....

Kind regards
Michiel

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

 

[Marcus Siepen]

Sorry, no disrespect, but if I would have sticked to your "advice", I wouldn't learn a lot of things. Why shouldn't we experiment and learn by doing? Not all of us are so dumb to mess with every parameter and then save it just like that and than later complain WTF did I do and blame FAS for making this damn device that complicated.

No disrespect taken. I never said you should not learn, actually this is exactly what I am saying, learn about the features you want to use, if you learn about them by trying things or reading or videos or whatever doesn't matter. Just don't mess with things you have no clue about and complain later. An no, of course not everybody does this, but quite a lot seem to be doing exactly this.

 

[Marcus Siepen]

Problem with this from a new users' point of view is that they still have to go through all amps in order to find the one they like.

And what will the new user do if he doesn't want to use the Axe FX but a real tubeamp? Look for a music store that only offers one amp so he doesn't have to try different ones? Same about guitars? Look for the shop that only offers one single guitar? Sorry, but this is nonsense.

 

[Tanax]

I see what you're saying, and the solution is to hit up the wiki and get to reading! Even if Sag was the only advanced parameter, you still wouldn't know what it did if you didn't bother to read up on it. That's not a user interface issue, that's a user issue, but that's fine and it only takes a minute to remedy. The Axe's screen isn't big enough to provide a complete description of every parameter, so all that can be done is call it the most intuitive thing that will fit under 10 or 12 characters and go from there, lol. The wiki is incredibly complete though so if you ever have a question, you should definitely hit up that place.

You still haven't provided me with any link to the Wiki so it's difficult to read up on that. And I've been on the forums for a while, imagine how difficult it must be for new users to find or even know that there is a Wiki.
There are no links on the forums as far as I can see, not at the top nor at the bottom.

 

[Deaj]

So, to come back to the initial statement: do you think the Axe II starts to suffer from this effect or do you think ultimate flexibility is the right track to go?

I believe this question has been answered many times over in this discussion. While not unanimous the majority of the answers indicate that ultimate flexibility is the way to go.

It matters not though. Cliff clearly has a vision and a passion for this product and his direction has been clear and consistent from the beginning (from the introduction of the AxeFX Standard in 2006). This has been an interesting topic but it's of little consequence. The AxeFX is what it is and Cliff has thus far been very successful with it. The target demographic is not the beginner. This is a world class digital signal processor for studio engineers, pro players, etc. It's complexity (read: extraordinary versatility and flexibility) reflects that focus. This doesn't mean that the novice player, semi-pros, bedroom players, etc. are not a part (small or significant) of the FAS user base. It simply means that a novice needs to be prepared to learn if they wish to move beyond playing through presets and/or adjusting basic parameters only. It's the nature of the beast. no matter who buys an AxeFX the power user is the target demographic.

Ultimate flexibility is the way to go. It has been for 8 years. If the past is any indicator this focus will not change.

 

[Tanax]

And what will the new user do if he doesn't want to use the Axe FX but a real tubeamp? Look for a music store that only offers one amp so he doesn't have to try different ones? Same about guitars? Look for the shop that only offers one single guitar? Sorry, but this is nonsense.

Fine, you bring up a valid point. But the shop analogy was crap though because in a shop you can get personal assistance from the people working there. It's difficult to get personal assistance (face to face) with the Axe-FX, at least in Sweden.

 

[Deaj]

You still haven't provided me with any link to the Wiki so it's difficult to read up on that. And I've been on the forums for a while, imagine how difficult it must be for new users to find or even know that there is a Wiki.
There are no links on the forums as far as I can see, not at the top nor at the bottom.

A Google search for most any AxeFX II advanced parameter will usually provide a link to the AxeFX II Wiki.
For instance - a search for AxeFX II sag...
https://www.google.com/search?q=Axe...me&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#q=AxeFX+II+sag
The 2nd querry result provides a link to the Wiki and topic: Amp (block) - Axe-Fx II Wiki - Fractal Audio Systems Wiki.

 

[Rotti]

So... can we let this thread die now?

 

[Tanax]

Fractal Audio Systems - Axe-Fx II Guitar Processor, Preamp, Effects Processor - MFC-101 MIDI Foot Controller

Click on Support.

Fractal Audio Systems - Support

Right-hand bar, option 2: Consult the Fractal Community

Third link down.

I admit it's a slightly convoluted process to get to the Wiki but it's definitely there. I don't think three clicks and maybe 60 seconds of reading before you can bookmark something is much to ask for.

The only thing I can *slightly* fault FAS for is their documentation and ecosystem lagging behind their product, what with CabLab not supporting UltraRes, the manual only being updated every so often, having three different Fractal-written Axe-related utilities that could be one, and so forth. Then again this is largely a function of agile development with cutting-edge technologies and the price point that the Axe is being delivered at (which is quite low given its value and quality). Doesn't change the fact that the Wiki link is right below the link to the forum that you're currently browsing.

I'll gladly pay $2200 for a box that does $220,000 worth of stuff (aggregate cost of modelled equipment, estimated) if it means I have to, y'know, read stuff.

Google search: AxeFX II guide
https://www.google.com/search?q=AxeFX+II&oq=AxeFX+II&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.5788j0j8&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#q=AxeFX+II+guide"]https://www.google.com/search?q=AxeFX+II&oq=AxeFX+II&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.5788j0j8&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#q=AxeFX+II+guide
4th querry result reads: Axe-Fx II Wiki Home - Fractal Audio Systems Wiki

Google search: AxeFX II sag
https://www.google.com/search?q=Axe...me&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#q=AxeFX+II+sag
2nd querry result reads: Amp (block) - Axe-Fx II Wiki - Fractal Audio Systems Wiki

It isn't anyone else's responsibility to teach us. If we want knowledge we must seek it out. I'm not trying to insult you. It's just that your reply insinuates that you could not have read up on the subject in the Wiki until GreatGreen answered your question. The subject matter in this discussion is the UI, not the Wiki. GreatGreen may well have assumed that if you were interested that you would have Google'd 'AxeFX II Wiki' even before he had a chance to respond.

Thank you.
I don't think the Wiki even existed when I first visited this forum before I bought the unit and I bookmarked the forum page, thus never entered the home page again except for when doing a firmware update. That may be why I never saw the Wiki link since I always only visited the forums.

 

[Loquenau]

It's not the amount of parameters, it's being to able to see and access them.

What my Humanities instructor called 'hyper-consciousness'. I exercise my ability to ignore, especially when it comes to world events. In the case of the Axe, like Scotty said - till I feel like it.


@Zwieb: dude, I think barh was indicating that your arguably verbose question had a simpler answer.

 

[dwmichaels]

No. I believe feature creep is probably akin to scope creep which is the implication that the original design is being compromised in part due to additional items. In this case, the original design of the axe is being compromised due to the number of features being introduced.

Cliff delivered the best product he could (for the time) with the Axe 1. As his knowledge and technology advanced he's been able to modify and improve the unit to the point that a hardware upgrade was required to get closer to his original idea. He's continuing to find new ways to improve on his current design. I don't believe any of the features being introduced are outside the scope of the unit itself. Adding a computer interface that's built into the unit would seem to be something out of scope and an unnecessary feature. But anything amp or effect related would seem to be right in line with a top end modeler and effects unit.

If Cliff/FAS waited until they could deliver the original concept they had in mind then the product might never make it to the shelves. Windows started with MS-Dos. Great things take time and perseverance.