Axe FX 3 and FM3 tone difference and it is not subtle in my setup - SOLVED

Lkdog

Lkdog

Power User
OK, I have read through the manual on I/O setup and this recent thread.

FM3 vs AXEFXIII


I have an AXE FX 3 and just picked up an FM3 as I wanted a portable unit and to try it with my FC-6.

Anyway...... at the risk of sounding ignorant which is very possible I am finding that the FM3 lacks the same clarity and resolution in my setup and I am not sure why.
It is not subtle.

I have tried to make it apples to apples comparision as much I can.

1) Listening through same headphones (Senn HD600) or monitors (Yamaha HS8s)
2) Using various same factory stock presets i.e. (59 Bassguy/JM45/Supertweed, etc).
3) Checking the presets for similar output at OUTPUT 1 and on sound level output on my mixer.
4) Both units using INPUT 1 Analog and OUTPUT 1 (=4 dBu).
5) Global EQ is the same (flat)
6) Noise gate settings the same
7) Input impedance is set to Auto: 1M on the AXE FX 3
8) Same guitar (Gibson R8)
9) Checking the preset preamp tone settings and Amp control settings (the same)
10) Both units go into same Mackie 1202 VLZ mixer into like pair of inputs out to the Yamaha monitors
11) When using headphones it is from the Mackie headphone output
12) Same exact guitar cables
13) Both have most recent FW and stock presets



Any thoughts here?? Something obvious I should check??

I should say I have had an FM9 side by side with the Axe FX3 and did not notice a difference.
This is like the top end is rolled off on the FM3.

Thanks in advance.
 
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Other than all the information you can find on the forum (I remember there was already a similar discussion).. I think that using stock presets is not like comparing apples to apples... they are made to fit the device, so I assume they are different.

I suggest to create your own preset starting with a blank one and incrementally introduce variables while comparing..
e.g.:
  1. IN > OUT
  2. IN > AMP > CAB > OUT
  3. IN > DRIVE > AMP > CAB > OUT
  4. IN > DRIVE > AMP > CAB > TIME EFFECTS > OUT
  5. ..
In this way you should spot where the sound is different and why
 
This runs exactly opposite to my experience. I hear no detectable difference between FM3, FM9 and Axe III modeling.

You said it sounds like the top end is rolled off on your FM3. I can work with that. The other descriptors you used, "clarity" and "resolution," have no accepted definition. They can be interpreted in multiple ways, so they don't offer much to go on.

The first thing that comes to mind is volume. Not just levels, but the actual volume reaching your ears. Make sure the volumes are equal when you compare.

The next thing that comes to mind is what @Riccardo Ros wrote above. He presents a good way to get to the bottom of this.
 
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I can do what he suggests but these are really simple pretty clean stock preset scenes. Amp > CAB with Reverb. Amp settings and all other parameters verified almost exactly the same.
Volume levels the same reaching my ears.

I should also note I have had about every Fractal product since their original.
This isn't nuance.
 
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if it is the top end roll off - have you looked at the cab preamp and check the filter - sometimes that can be set to 10Khz
 
You could run the FM3 through the effect loop of the AxeFx and use the same cab block in the Axe for both units. That way you can mute one amp block and compare the amp sound. I would not use a preset, but a single amp block with same settings on both devices.
 
Lkdog said:
OK, I have read through the manual on I/O setup and this recent thread.

FM3 vs AXEFXIII


I have an AXE FX 3 and just picked up an FM3 as I wanted a portable unit and to try it with my FC-6.

Anyway...... at the risk of sounding ignorant which is very possible I am finding that the FM3 lacks the same clarity and resolution in my setup and I am not sure why.
It is not subtle.

I have tried to make it apples to apples comparision as much I can.

1) Listening through same headphones (Senn HD600) or monitors (Yamaha HS8s)
2) Using various same factory stock presets i.e. (59 Bassguy/JM45/Supertweed, etc).
3) Checking the presets for similar output at OUTPUT 1 and on sound level output on my mixer.
4) Both units using INPUT 1 Analog and OUTPUT 1 (=4 dBu).
5) Global EQ is the same (flat)
6) Noise gate settings the same
7) Input impedance is set to Auto: 1M on the AXE FX 3
8) Same guitar (Gibson R8)
9) Checking the preset preamp tone settings and Amp control settings (the same)
10) Both units go into same Mackie 1202 VLZ mixer into like pair of inputs out to the Yamaha monitors
11) When using headphones it is from the Mackie headphone output
12) Same exact guitar cables
13) Both have most recent FW and stock presets



Any thoughts here?? Something obvious I should check??

I should say I have had an FM9 side by side with the Axe FX3 and did not notice a difference.
This is like the top end is rolled off on the FM3.

Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...
If you feel that the top end is rolled off on one of the devices, I would check that that input impedance is set the same on both devices.
 
Lkdog said:
13) Both have most recent FW and stock presets
Click to expand...
Another though: latest Axe FW got compressors fully redone. Fm3 doesn't have this (yet?). So if a preset has a CMP engaged, you'll get immediate difference right there. You actually need to go back in Axe FW versions to get a "matching" FW version.
 
Which FW version are you running? FW21.04 introduced quite a dramatic tone difference due to improved modelling and FM3 didn't catch up yet.
 
Appreciate the feedback.
Will go through these one by one:

On a very simple stock preset scene - 59 BASSGUY - Crunch Bright (Amp>CAB>Reverb)

Checked the CAB high cut. Both at 20K.

Already using same Amp block with same settings on same CAB blocks (4X10 Bassguy) on both.

Input Impedance is both 1M as my understanding is the FM3 is fixed at 1M.

Yep- this thread is linked in my original post. https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/fm3-vs-axe-fxiii.190335/ (The guy got a lot of grief so I tried to do homework ahead of time). LOL

Have tried different input pairs into Mackie (it is pretty new and these things are bullet proof. My last one lasted 25 years and only had scratchy pots).

Both using most recent FW, but this is more than a modeling difference. It is a blanket over the tone. Flubby low end. See above preset used (no compressor or anything before AMP)

***************************************************************************************************************************************************************

Also -

I reinstalled the FW on FM3 and had already reset the FM3 to default.
Also swapped cables to mixer.
Also tried OUTPUT 2 from the FM3.


No luck.
 
yek said:
Audio demonstration:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bh6dd4bwoec8ycm/sample.wav?dl=0

Using my Ditto Looper, into the Axe-Fx III and FM3 into GarageBand (USB), recording the USB channels from both devices on different tracks.

Devices sound the same.

Same preset setup on both devices:

View attachment 117696
Click to expand...


Yek-

You are a legend here and I have followed and appreciated everything you have done for years.
I have no doubt that it is sounding the same or almost the same for you and others.

It isn't in my setup. My setup is pretty basic.

For the record- I created a simple preset. In>AMP>CAB>OUT.
Same exact settings. Everything on amp at noon.

Still rolled off and flubby.
 
Lkdog said:
Yek-

You are a legend here and I have followed and appreciated everything you have done for years.
I have no doubt that it is sounding the same or almost the same for you and others.

It isn't in my setup. My setup is pretty basic.

For the record- I created a simple preset. In>AMP>CAB>OUT.
Same exact settings. Everything on amp at noon.

Still rolled off and flubby.
Click to expand...
In this case you should create an audio file for comparison and check with customer support.
 
I would check if you have any global eq settings that cut your high end.
Otherwise, contact support. You should not be able to discern a difference between the 2 units by ear, in my experience.
 
yek said:
Switch the output cabling at the rear of the devices. Does the other device now sound rolled off? Then it’s the cable(s).

And then do the same with the guitar cables.
Click to expand...


Appreciate all the replies.
I think I found the issue. Crazy.

I had two guitar cables. Exactly the same (same wire, same neutrik connectors).
The one I just made up and terminated is causing the issue. Have no idea why. (Probably need to check if I have a bad solder connection) When I put that one on the AXE FX3 it had the same rolling off effect.


I tried another old guitar cable I had laying around and the FM3 is now sounding 97% the same as my AXE Fx3.
There is a tiny bit of difference but I can certainly attribute that to the different cables being used and the slightly different hardware and slightly different preset settings.

Thanks everyone!
 
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Lkdog said:
Appreciate all the replies.
I think I found the issue. Crazy.

I had two guitar cables. Exactly the same (same wire, same neutrik connectors).
The one I just made up and terminated is causing the issue. Have no idea why. (Probably need to check if I have a bad solder connection) When I put that one on the AXE FX3 it had the same rolling off effect.
Click to expand...
Did you make that cable using CA-0446 cable from Best-Tronics? If so, open the connectors and trim back that thin black layer on the dielectric. It looks like it should be an insulator, but it conducts current. It can cause the problem you experienced.
 
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