Axe 2 arrived! ...... Sure I can feel latency.....?????

B

burgher79

New Member
Hi Guys,

I have been reading and watching this forum for the last 9 months waiting on my Axe 2. Well it finally came and I was very excited. I plugged it into my motu traveler soundcard and used the onboard mixer to listen through my Alesis Active MKII speakers. The first thing that struck me was how 'disconnected' I felt from the axe when playing lead runs. I have played with latency before and this felt very similar. Also, when chugging power chords it didn't feel right, again like a small delay/latency. I read some posts in the forum about something similar and it was mentioned that removing the noise gates would help, so I dialled them right down - however, it possibly helped, but by this time i didnt know if I was imagining it or not!!! Next i decided to plug it straight into one of the Alesis speakers and it still seemed to feel the same. I then thought I would try my Pod XT Pro for comparison, and I think it was better but again hard to tell as I was thinking about it so much - certainly it 'felt' tighter to me.

I had read all the latency specs of the Axe: 600micro seconds for Axe plus 400micro seconds for converters = 1ms total from Axe, so know that it is very low so decided to test it. I have a Little Labs 3D di/re-amp unit which I recorded the dry signal from and the wet signal from the Axe. I sent a transient signal from my computer to the little labs (and Axe) which then recorded both into Logic. When I measured the difference between the two it was on average around 120 samples = approx 2.7ms @ 44.1kHz SR. This would seem very reasonable - 1ms for the Axe, 1.7ms for the motu Low Latency Mixer.

So the above testing would show that the latency is more than acceptable, so why the hell do I feel a disconnect when playing faster lead lines? Could it be that Im just so used to the Pod sounds that the difference is whats putting me off?

I am getting a second opinion tomorrow evening from a metal player who plays much faster lines than me. I haven't mentioned anything to him so no preconceptions.

BTW The amp sounds from the Axe Fx are fantastic. I have a JVM amp which I compared to the JVM model and it is VERY accurate and sounds fantastic - certainly my favourite amp so far.

Cheers
Ian
 
The II has more latency, probably closer to 2 ms [? I keep forgetting] because of the 2 CPUs.

I don't think that in itself is a problem, but I get the feeling I know what you mean.
Going thru the presets, I've had it often that I felt "I have to disable the noise gate or compressor here" and there was none...
Blamed it on my newish guitar that I don't know so good yet.
I guess it might also be a feel thing to do with the current state of the (pre)amp modelling. Stuff we might be able to tune with 5.0.
 
It sounds like your first impression was affected by the latency of your MOTU soundcard. I know you said you tried going direct to one of your Alesis speakers.. but I just can't feel or detect any latency when I play the Axe II with analog output into an amp / speaker. Maybe I'm just not so sensitive to it..
 
i think its your soundcard not the axe .. even if its 2ms .. thats the time the sound needs to travel 70cm .. so sitting 70cm away from your monitors and having headphones on is the same difference ;)
 
I got some latency with my II when I first got it.
I removed my M-audio drivers and went USB for recording and my latency basically vanished.
 
Like others have said, adding 2 milliseconds to a signal is like standing two feet farther away from it.

If you're "hearing" lag, it's because you know there is technically a little bit of lag there, so your brain looks for any tiny thing it can find to confirm your suspicions, whether there is any actual lag or not. 2 milliseconds might as well be 10. Either way, you're pretty much not going to be hearing or feeling it.

Try an experiment: put a delay block after an amp block. Mix and Balance at 50%. Play with the delay lengths. Get a feel for how long 10, 20, 30ms actually is. Now push the delay's balance up to 100%. Have a friend set the delay anywhere between 0-30ms. See if you can actually tell any difference between whatever changes he makes.
 
The only time I have noticed any latency issues is when I reamped through usb, and I kinda expected that.
 
"Get on the bus that takes me to you." - Magic Bus

vAmp said:
The II has more latency, probably closer to 2 ms [? I keep forgetting] because of the 2 CPUs.
Click to expand...

vAmp,

I don't think it quite works that way...

It's highly unlikely (as in...IMPOSSIBLE) that Cliff implemented a second microprocessor "in-series" with the other microprocessor! (BTW, I think it's: one processor for the amp-modeling and one processor for the effects & "everything-else.") Thus, the latency would never "double!" - LOL! (I am certainly no expert, and I could be wrong, BUT) I'd venture to guess that these big micro-processors are running "in-parallel" with some sort of "data-bus/memory/"control-handshake protocol," so it's more likely the same speed as one processor's latency PLUS the (miniscule) amount of latency caused by the aforementioned "bus-control handshake" logic.

Bill
 
Last edited:
You're sure putting a lot of words into my mouth! (in series??, doubling??)

I have from Cliff himself that the latency is more than the G1 because of the 2nd CPU, that's all.
Throughout the times I've also seen different latency figures from Cliff himself (as well as from Jay Mitchell & maybe others).
Myself, I still feel the Axe seems to predict what you're gonna play, so no latency worries from me, but I stand by what I said earlier though: there can be an impression of latency of some sorts for whatever reason (for me).

Cliff probably said more than once that latency is 1ms for G1, but has also said:
"I think a Pod is around 2-3ms. The Axe-Fx is 1.5ms."
1.5 + 0.3 = 1.8 = closer to 2 ms, like I said.

Jay said: "The latency in the Axe-Fx is on the order of 1.6ms" + 0.3 = 1.9 ms
 
Last edited:
I agree that you are having a slow interface issue.
remove the interface from the picture for a minute. plug into the front head phone out - it will be gone for all human intents - this will verify that it is your peripheral and not the box itself
 
Well I have had a good play on it again this afternoon, this time straight out into the alesis both L+R. I stripped back one of the presets so it was just amp->cab->Rvb (small amount), and it certainly felt better. After a few minutes I was just wigging out on the tones and in a world of my own. Then I stared playing with the cabinet mics and it helped when I used mics that brightened the sounds a bit. I actually think it was the noise gate that put me off as it was cutting part of the notes off and this is probably what made me think if latency as it felt similar. I guess its one of those things that once you think there is a problem, you are paranoid that its there and start looking for it! lol. Probably too long using the plastic amp sims :)

Anyway, this afternoon gave me a good appreciation of the sounds on the unit - all I can say is that the sounds are astounding!!! I played a bit more with the JVM amp model and compared it with my JVM combo and it is remarkably close - In fact at one point I forgot I was playing the Axe!!

Although I bought the Axe primarily for my home studio, I can now totally appreciate the benefits of FRFR and playing live with this thing - I didnt fully appreciate just how good the sounds were. I think my studio speakers will need replacing after that session - playing AC/DC TNT most of the afternoon!!

Ian
 
You can probably feel a pea under 100 mattresses or something because I don't feel any latency at all ever for 4 years using an axe fx. Good luck!
 
burgher79 said:
Well I have had a good play on it again this afternoon, this time straight out into the alesis both L+R. I stripped back one of the presets so it was just amp->cab->Rvb (small amount), and it certainly felt better. After a few minutes I was just wigging out on the tones and in a world of my own. Then I stared playing with the cabinet mics and it helped when I used mics that brightened the sounds a bit. I actually think it was the noise gate that put me off as it was cutting part of the notes off and this is probably what made me think if latency as it felt similar. I guess its one of those things that once you think there is a problem, you are paranoid that its there and start looking for it! lol. Probably too long using the plastic amp sims :)

Anyway, this afternoon gave me a good appreciation of the sounds on the unit - all I can say is that the sounds are astounding!!! I played a bit more with the JVM amp model and compared it with my JVM combo and it is remarkably close - In fact at one point I forgot I was playing the Axe!!

Although I bought the Axe primarily for my home studio, I can now totally appreciate the benefits of FRFR and playing live with this thing - I didnt fully appreciate just how good the sounds were. I think my studio speakers will need replacing after that session - playing AC/DC TNT most of the afternoon!!

Ian
Click to expand...


When you want it even more in your face you can rise presence and damp and/or choose cabs with more highs.
That makes a bit of a latency feeling disapear.
Disconnected feeling is not only a time thing (wich here is not much as said above) but also a sound thing.
I want my sound with lots of highs blowin straight in my face without too much effects that could steel away direct sound.
The faster I hear myself the more connected I feel and that's what highs and pressure (depends on your monitoring) can do.
I check back my presets from time to time with loud stage monitors to avoid too prominent highs.
 
Do the analog amplifiers have latency? Some amps are/feel faster to pick attack than others, is this caused by sag? Is posible to know how much latency have an analog circuit?

and...
Maybe the Axe can copy the exact latency of real amps so realer feeling!! :lol (I know, I know...... just kidding!)

First questions are seriously.
 
guitartrue said:
Do the analog amplifiers have latency? Some amps are/feel faster to pick attack than others, is this caused by sag? Is posible to know how much latency have an analog circuit?

and...
Maybe the Axe can copy the exact latency of real amps so realer feeling!! :lol (I know, I know...... just kidding!)

First questions are seriously.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't call that latency. But yes, the impression of fast/slow amps and fast/slow guitars exists, so meassuring the technical latency will not tell you everything about the speed of gear. Latency is only one piece of the puzzle.
 
vAmp said:
You're sure putting a lot of words into my mouth! (in series??, doubling??)

I have from Cliff himself that the latency is more than the G1 because of the 2nd CPU, that's all.
Throughout the times I've also seen different latency figures from Cliff himself (as well as from Jay Mitchell & maybe others).
Myself, I still feel the Axe seems to predict what you're gonna play, so no latency worries from me, but I stand by what I said earlier though: there can be an impression of latency of some sorts for whatever reason (for me).

Cliff probably said more than once that latency is 1ms for G1, but has also said:
"I think a Pod is around 2-3ms. The Axe-Fx is 1.5ms."
1.5 + 0.3 = 1.8 = closer to 2 ms, like I said.

Jay said: "The latency in the Axe-Fx is on the order of 1.6ms" + 0.3 = 1.9 ms
Click to expand...

Pods have a way higher latency
 
I will suggest trying it direct into an amplifier of some sort; stereo, amp, etc. Some (more) direct manner of monitoring, removing the soundcard (and any additional latencies) from the equation. Now, try the soundcard route once again.

If you can get a soundcard buffer down to ~32 samples, you should be fine. Anything above 64samples (@ 44.1/48k) for me gets "wonky." 64 samples is acceptable (for me). Just my opinion :D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom