AX8 vs Helix: Amp Tone and Effects

If I end up with a Helix it'll be due to these reasons:
- I can buy it whenever I want.
- I can buy it from whoever has the best price, better shipping, better service or a mix of those of my choosing.
- I can buy it cheaper than an AX8 and even more than an AX8 plus an expression pedal (between 200€ and 350€ difference). This is probably a non-issue in the US.
- I could make a Line6 XT sound in a mix as I wanted to. Anything better than that is a piece of cake, so I know a Helix will do fine.

I'm still very intrigued of the magic beneath the AX8, but being more than happy with the AmpliFire and not needing to win the e-mail lottery to buy a Helix are quickly relieving the pressure.
If I could, I'd have them all :D
 
mikah912 said:
Some great points here. What's more accurate is always a tricky area for me. Not because I want to cop out and say that "none of them" are. I'm sure there are objective degrees of that which are inarguable and measurable the same way that a high-resolution IR from Ownhammer is absolutely more realistic and accurate than a comb filter of the same cab/mic combo on, say, a Boss GT-100. There's simply more information and detail there.

But when we talk about Axe or Kemper vs. Helix, there are so many points of accuracy in the signal chain. When someone on TGP made a Helix vs Kemper thread, there were stark model-for-model differences when each unit's default cab simulation was used. But when he made IRs of the Kemper cabs, the distance closed greatly. What was left could've easily been explained as it being a differently aged Blackface or Recto between the two. Or the ones that Kemper or Line 6 modeled had slightly different tubes than the other. Or one was biased slightly different.

Similarly, Fractal having many proprietary IRs in its stock image would make it tricky to make a 1:1 comparison on what's more "realistic". Certainly, you can try to compare "pick response" or "note bloom" or "Volume knob response", but I've seen people vehemently disagree on those things on the same unit, much less comparing between two units.

If the chief determinant is what has less digital artifacts, it would appear from early reports that Fractal is well ahead of Helix in that regard given the number of people who take issue with "crossover distortion"-type sounds that they perceive in some Helix models. I personally don't really hear it except when it was isolated in a way that I would never listen to a guitar tone. But that doesn't mean it';s not there or that those people are wrong.

I think Fractal being a way more mature and developed platform is always going to be a big advantage in quality and breadth of tone. Having the treasure chest of stock IRs is a big win too. Line 6's having nothing but a relatively limited homemade IR selection was always a bad idea on Helix, and I've never been shy about saying so. With work put in (i.e. hunting down and auditioning third party IRs), the gap might be negligible. But the more people pay for a unit, the less they want to work to achieve tonal nirvana.
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It's all good. To me there's some discernible differences. Someone else's conclusions are obviously up to them. I do believe that the differences are more highlighted in actual usage. Have you had a chance to play a Helix, An Axe with Quantum, or an AX8 in person?
 
Gearzilla said:
If someone is digitally modeling guitars then it's fairly obvious that sounding like the actual instrument being modeled is the litmus test, not whether or not someone can get a good tone out of the device. I believe this holds true for amp and effect modeling.
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I agree. And that's why so much of this is silly. We don't have access to the actual amp/effect that was modeled so we can't compare and determine whether one is more accurate than another.

At the end of the day, if I can dial up a Fender Twin sound I like on different units and both sound like a Fender Twin to my ears, they'll both work. I may prefer one to the other, but that doesn't mean one is more accurate than the other. There may be other reasons to prefer one over another. Right now I'm thrilled that I have two units that sound good enough for me to use live. I'm just getting started with the AX8, but will use one of them at my gig on January 30. Today I can't tell you which one and I won't put them side by side for comparison until I have the AX8 set up with what I need/want to get through the gig.

It's an exciting time.
 
DavidE said:
I agree. And that's why so much of this is silly. We don't have access to the actual amp/effect that was modeled so we can't compare and determine whether one is more accurate than another.

At the end of the day, if I can dial up a Fender Twin sound I like on different units and both sound like a Fender Twin to my ears, they'll both work. I may prefer one to the other, but that doesn't mean one is more accurate than the other. There may be other reasons to prefer one over another. Right now I'm thrilled that I have two units that sound good enough for me to use live. I'm just getting started with the AX8, but will use one of them at my gig on January 30. Today I can't tell you which one and I won't put them side by side for comparison until I have the AX8 set up with what I need/want to get through the gig.

It's an exciting time.
Click to expand...
WOuld you consider doing the following?
1.) Do a direct A/B comparison of two "stock" amps (with stock presets that is),
say two Marshall 2204's etc.
2.) Do the same comparison, but trying to tweak them to sound as similar as possible.
3.) Do the same tweaking but this time use a 3rd party IR on BOTH devices (say an Ownhammer etc).

This would give most folks a decent idea of how (if) the gap closes for each consecutive step.
At least, that's the way I'd do a shootout if I had access to both devices.
I might actually do one, if I can loan an Axe II from someone when I get the Helix
(you won't believe this, but the shipping company that picked it up Monday now claims
they've never picked it up and it's vanished with out a trace. It was one of only two available units
in ALL of Sweden! :mad: )
 
Gearzilla said:
It's all good. To me there's some discernible differences. Someone else's conclusions are obviously up to them. I do believe that the differences are more highlighted in actual usage. Have you had a chance to play a Helix, An Axe with Quantum, or an AX8 in person?
Click to expand...

No on all three. I played a pre-Quantum Axe II and loved it.
 
Richard Lainegard said:
WOuld you consider doing the following?
1.) Do a direct A/B comparison of two "stock" amps (with stock presets that is),
say two Marshall 2204's etc.
2.) Do the same comparison, but trying to tweak them to sound as similar as possible.
3.) Do the same tweaking but this time use a 3rd party IR on BOTH devices (say an Ownhammer etc).

This would give most folks a decent idea of how (if) the gap closes for each consecutive step.
At least, that's the way I'd do a shootout if I had access to both devices.
I might actually do one, if I can loan an Axe II from someone when I get the Helix
(you won't believe this, but the shipping company that picked it up Monday now claims
they've never picked it up and it's vanished with out a trace. It was one of only two available units
in ALL of Sweden! :mad: )
Click to expand...

I was going to do that same sort of comparison with my Amplifire (not the first one because I think comparing stock presets is meaningless :D), but then I got lazy. And I don't know that it would prove much anyway. I know myself that I can get, say, a clean Fender tone that makes me want to play for hours on either unit. That's what really counts. People have done blind comparisons like this in the past and what happens is people pick the one they like the most as being the unit they like the most. Then when the truth is revealed, they're either happy to have their biases confirmed (if they guessed right) or question the competence of the person dialing in the tones (if they guessed wrong). Either way, no minds are changed.
-
Austin
 
Chris@AxeFxTutorials said:
i found this video

Code: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLzxrzFCyOs
Click to expand...

First good comparison I've seen...think I'll still stick with the waitlist though. The animosity is astounding to me...I've been on a podHD for a year or two now and it sounds alright. Definitely expecting fractal to be a large step up from that, but it doesn't make the L6 stuff any less capable. I definitely like the pod a LOT more now that I'm running through a poweramp and 1x12 rather than studio monitors. To the point that I don't really care anymore how much longer I have to wait for the AX8...it helps that I'm not trying to record anything though, tweaking that thing has been a consistent pain for me. Hoping that everything I've heard about fractal in that regards is true.
 
DavidE said:
I agree. And that's why so much of this is silly. We don't have access to the actual amp/effect that was modeled so we can't compare and determine whether one is more accurate than another.

At the end of the day, if I can dial up a Fender Twin sound I like on different units and both sound like a Fender Twin to my ears, they'll both work. I may prefer one to the other, but that doesn't mean one is more accurate than the other. There may be other reasons to prefer one over another. Right now I'm thrilled that I have two units that sound good enough for me to use live. I'm just getting started with the AX8, but will use one of them at my gig on January 30. Today I can't tell you which one and I won't put them side by side for comparison until I have the AX8 set up with what I need/want to get through the gig.

It's an exciting time.
Click to expand...
I agree that at the end of the day if someone likes what they have that's what it's all about.

One of the challenges with digital modeling seems to be not adding additional harmonic content from rounding that sounds unnatural. People's perceptions of accuracy vary widely....

It's all real. :)
 
Richard Lainegard said:
WOuld you consider doing the following?
1.) Do a direct A/B comparison of two "stock" amps (with stock presets that is),
say two Marshall 2204's etc.
2.) Do the same comparison, but trying to tweak them to sound as similar as possible.
3.) Do the same tweaking but this time use a 3rd party IR on BOTH devices (say an Ownhammer etc).

This would give most folks a decent idea of how (if) the gap closes for each consecutive step.
At least, that's the way I'd do a shootout if I had access to both devices.
I might actually do one, if I can loan an Axe II from someone when I get the Helix
(you won't believe this, but the shipping company that picked it up Monday now claims
they've never picked it up and it's vanished with out a trace. It was one of only two available units
in ALL of Sweden! :mad: )
Click to expand...


I don't think I would for a couple of reasons.

1) I don't have a recording setup and since the AX8 does not have a recording interface, I can't record it easily or properly.
2) I don't feel that I have a good enough grasp on either unit to provide a useful comparison.
3) I don't think a comparison of the two units is especially valuable without including a recording of an example of the amp being modeled.
4) No matter what I did, people here would believe that I have a bias toward the Helix so that would alter the perceptions of the listeners.

I would add that if anyone attempts this kind of comparison, the guitar playing should be either recorded and reamped through both or stored in a looper and then played through both. That way both units are receiving the identical signal.

As far as a comparison goes, all I can say is that I took the Helix with the original firmware (much improved sound since then since they had something wrong with their cabinet settings and did other tweaks) to Ethomas' house and we did a non-scientific comparison of his AxeII and Helix through his CLR. I really had no idea how to adjust the Helix at that point, so it was pretty much stock settings. There were differences (I did prefer the AC30 he dialed up on the Axe a lot), but the units sounded more similar than I expected. I posted about this a while ago. Eric heard differences I didn't hear.

Now that I have the AX8 hooked up at my computer and am listening through JBL 305s, I'm getting some tones that just sound fantastic from the AX8. I mean REALLY fantastic. I may be ready to do some side by side comparisons for my own ear this weekend if I'm lucky. What I'm hearing from the AX8 may send me back to the tweaking board on the Helix. But it's hard to know in isolation.

I'm also going to need to set up some presets for my piezo equipped guitars on the AX8 like Chris used in his tutorial video.
 
Chris@AxeFxTutorials said:
i found this video

Code: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLzxrzFCyOs
Click to expand...

That's really interesting. I think it's much better done in this video than in the Helix/Kemper comparison. Why compare a unit you don't know how to set up (and don't) to one you've been working with for a while and have dialed in? Meh. This, on the other hand, is more of what I'd be looking for.

Thanks Chris
 
DavidE said:
...Eric heard differences I didn't hear....
Click to expand...

It would be fun to do it again because what I was hearing I attributed to the cab modeling which I understand has had some fixes since then.

I liked a lot of what I heard from the Helix. If FAS had not made the AX8 I would have bought a Helix to use at Church, but there's no way I would have sold my AxeII (which I did sell after getting the AX8).

There are some freaking great units on the market now. If you can't get good results out them the gear is not the problem.
 
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